[unknownsolo]

Hi all,
 
I recently built a new extremely high-end PC ($7000+) with the motherboard "asus rampage v extreme" - This motherboard is advertised to have Asus's SupremeFX 2014 which I believe is based on Realtek's 1150 chipset.
 
I also have two high end IEMs, Shure SE846 and a custom UE 18 Pro (which are awesome - the Shure SE846 is my backup)
 
Anywho, I love my audio and always spent a little extra for an external DAC/AMP. With my new setup, I thought, it was not complete unless I get a nice DAC/AMP to complement it. While the Sound Blaster X7 looked promising but was not out at the time, I got the Sound Blaster E5. When I received it, first thing I did was to see how far along on board audio has come. I compared my onboard sound to Sound Blaster E5 connect through USB with both my Shure and UE 18 Pro and honestly could not tell a difference at all. I was not that surprised since I got a real high end board and thought maybe the onboard sound is as good as the Sound Blaster E5.
 
When the time came and I received the Sound Blaster X7, I did another onboard comparison to the X7 and could not tell a difference.
 
I was a little surprised and thought maybe Asus did really include a crazy awesome onboard implementation like advertised this time. However, I was not fully satisfied!
 
I thought the best way is to just shell out some extra cash and get the new Woo Audio WA7d. Mind you that is a $1200 DAC/AMP. I was super excited to get it. But when I received it and plugged it in. I did a comparison right away with onboard. This time I was really shocked. If you were to blindfold me, I would not be able to tell which is which when it came to the sound quality. The woo audio only had a different sound sig but by no means better or worse.
 
Lastly, I thought OK, maybe I just need to burn in the Woo Audio for a while since its tube amp and all. Left it there playing for almost 48 hours. Came back and tested. Same thing. No difference whats so ever beside the slight sound signature difference.
 
I was happy and pissed at the same time! Happy that my computer can produce this awesome sound and that I can plug my headphones straight to the jack and enjoy. But also pissed that the Woo Audio and all the other DACs/AMPs were a disappointment.
 
Does this sound right? Or am I just going deaf after all the years of listening and trying out different headphones? I am sure I am not that deaf because I can still make out many different sound signatures.
 
Also keep in mind that with all of these devices tested. All software optimizations/EQs/etc. were all OFF. Everything straight from the source.
 
I would love to hear your feedback.

 

[hifi nub]

If you're at the top best of your equipment, like headphones/IEMs, And source is at its best, could be sound blindness? I just posted something about this, if ppl get so use to their sounds.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/750223/do-you-guys-get-sound-blindness

 

[bigbenrfan99]

Although I don't have any experience with the IEMs that you mentioned, IEMs in general are very easy to drive.  They are designed with low impedance and high sensitivity so that they can be well-driven from (and sound very good out of) just about anything with a headphone jack.  Again, I'm not familiar with the amp that you mentioned, but you will get the best results amping IEMs with amps that have low output impedances (it is often suggested that the output impedance should be 1/8 of the headphone impedance or lower).  If your amp has a low output impedance, you should probably at least be able to notice some difference.  It might help to focus on specific instruments or listen to parts of songs that only have one instrument playing, switching sources as quickly as possible.  I think your experience is more of a testament to the versatility of your IEMs than anything else.  If you were using high-impedance headphones or planars, you would be able to notice a difference much more easily.
 
Also, some people here have natural "golden ears" or have very well-trained hearing.  They can discern differences much more easily than the rest of us.

 

[unknownsolo]

hifi nub - Very interesting and makes sense. But, I honestly do not think its sound blindness. I could tell the difference between my headphones. I just cant tell the difference when using them with my new PC compared to these other external DACs.

 

[unknownsolo]

  Although I don't have any experience with the IEMs that you mentioned, IEMs in general are very easy to drive.  They are designed with low impedance and high sensitivity so that they can be well-driven from (and sound very good out of) just about anything with a headphone jack.  Again, I'm not familiar with the amp that you mentioned, but you will get the best results amping IEMs with amps that have low output impedances (it is often suggested that the output impedance should be 1/8 of the headphone impedance or lower).  If your amp has a low output impedance, you should probably at least be able to notice some difference.  It might help to focus on specific instruments or listen to parts of songs that only have one instrument playing, switching sources as quickly as possible.  I think your experience is more of a testament to the versatility of your IEMs than anything else.  If you were using high-impedance headphones or planars, you would be able to notice a difference much more easily.
 
Also, some people here have natural "golden ears" or have very well-trained hearing.  They can discern differences much more easily than the rest of us.

 
Maybe you are right. Maybe because I am using these IEMs that are really easy to drive and that is why I cant tell a difference? Could it also be that this motherboard onboard audio is as good as the other DACs/AMPs when powering IEMs that it is not even necessary for me to get an external DAC/AMP for them?
 
I mainly use IEMs but in the past, whether IEM or not, onboard audio was just horrible. Now, I am just very impressed. I mean, I just played with the built in EQ settings and adjusted few things manually and WOW! It beats any AMP I have ever used in the past.

 

[davidsh]

It joys me to read such an honest impression, thank you for that.
I am personally in the belief that the high end 4 figure amp/DAC industry is part hoax, part expectation and other personal biases.
You can head to the 'dark side' (sound science sub-forum) and poke around there.

Also feel free to pm.

 

[billybob_jcv]

There are many of us on head-fi that do not belong to the "golden ears club" - I have long said that the differences in headphones is far, far greater than the differences in quality electronics. That's why I stay out of the Source & Amp forums. I don't say there is no difference, but I do think the idea that two solid state, high quality DAC/amps have night & day differences is, at best, a very large exaggeration. I think there are many, many factors that affect what we hear and what we *think* we hear. I think some of these factors are MUCH more significant than the difference between two brands of DACs. For example, it has been shown that small differences in volume level can have a very significant impact on the quality of the sound we perceive. Humans are also very poor at actually identifying the small differences in overall volume level. We *think* the volume is the same, but it's not quite the same, and what we do hear sounds like a difference in quality to us. That's just *one* of many, many factors - and some of them aren't even really measurable, such as preconceived bias and other psychoacoustic elements. Finally, there is certainly a level of experience and training that comes into play. Listening *for differences* is not the same thing as listening "for pleasure*. With training and experience, experts (like Jude, or Tyll at InnerFidelity, or a professional sound engineer) can zero-in on specific differences in sound signatures. Once they have identified that telling difference, it becomes "obvious" to them, and they will hear that difference every time they listen to those two pieces of equipment. They aren't just listening to the music, they are dissecting it and analyzing it. That's a whole different plane of existence from what us mere mortals do when we listen.

 

[Head Injury]

Onboard audio is better than most audiophiles want to admit, and expensive amps and DACs do a lot less than they want to admit. I'm not surprised to hear your onboard sound is the same as a a dedicated DAC, I would actually expect it. My new motherboard has the ALC1150 chipset, if the rest of my gear were to spontaneously combust I would have no qualms with running the signal straight out of my PC.
 

  Also, some people here have natural "golden ears" or have very well-trained hearing.  They can discern differences much more easily than the rest of us.

The training is sometimes true (especially for distinguishing lossy codecs), the "golden ears" stuff is bull. It's just an ego thing. Golden ears won't help when the differences are too small for human hearing.

 

[kramer5150]

From my experiences with my macbook Pros and external DAC...
Built-in sound card audio can be very good sounding and can be more than robust enough to adequately power many headphones with plenty of dynamic headroom.  So your findings do not surprise me at all, especially given the high sensitivity of your particular IEMs.  A well designed headphone circuit is going to sound good, no matter how its physically packaged, implemented on the outside.
 
A lot of times sonic improvements lie in the realm of imaging, soundstage and projecting the illusion of audible space, and distance separation.  While I have no first hand experience with those IEMs specifically... I have never heard an in-ear that didn't sound decidedly "in the ear".  I think theres at least a possibility that your monitors are closing in the soundstage and not allowing your more $$$ setup to show what it can do, from an imaging standpoint.   

 

[unknownsolo]

It joys me to read such an honest impression, thank you for that.
I am personally in the belief that the high end 4 figure amp/DAC industry is part hoax, part expectation and other personal biases.
You can head to the 'dark side' (sound science sub-forum) and poke around there.

Also feel free to pm.

 
Thank you. While there are probably some audio equipment that do have better specs on paper, I believe that for the average Joe ears, it is very close to impossible to hear the difference. Or, the difference might be so minimal (2%-5%) that it is not worth all the extra money.

 

[unknownsolo]

  Onboard audio is better than most audiophiles want to admit, and expensive amps and DACs do a lot less than they want to admit. I'm not surprised to hear your onboard sound is the same as a a dedicated DAC, I would actually expect it. My new motherboard has the ALC1150 chipset, if the rest of my gear were to spontaneously combust I would have no qualms with running the signal straight out of my PC.

 
True. I am running straight out of my front audio right now as I am typing this. Super crisp, no interference at all. Pitch black when music is not playing - which is very rare for front audio.
 
Here are some photos of the PC just go give an idea.. Maybe it also helps since I have an open design case and I made sure that my front audio cable is separated and far away from everything else as much as possible to avoid having interference.
 

 

 

 
 

 

[Kalavere]

I have the Maximus VI Formula; I think on board audio sounds God awful. I use a Sound Blaster Zx for gaming.

That S-Frame must be a nightmare to keep dust free. What made you choose reference cards over watercooled?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  Hi all,
 
I recently built a new extremely high-end PC ($7000+) with the motherboard "asus rampage v extreme" - This motherboard is advertised to have Asus's SupremeFX 2014 which I believe is based on Realtek's 1150 chipset.
 
I also have two high end IEMs, Shure SE846 and a custom UE 18 Pro (which are awesome - the Shure SE846 is my backup)
 
Anywho, I love my audio and always spent a little extra for an external DAC/AMP. With my new setup, I thought, it was not complete unless I get a nice DAC/AMP to complement it. While the Sound Blaster X7 looked promising but was not out at the time, I got the Sound Blaster E5. When I received it, first thing I did was to see how far along on board audio has come. I compared my onboard sound to Sound Blaster E5 connect through USB with both my Shure and UE 18 Pro and honestly could not tell a difference at all. I was not that surprised since I got a real high end board and thought maybe the onboard sound is as good as the Sound Blaster E5.
 
When the time came and I received the Sound Blaster X7, I did another onboard comparison to the X7 and could not tell a difference.
 
I was a little surprised and thought maybe Asus did really include a crazy awesome onboard implementation like advertised this time. However, I was not fully satisfied!
 
I thought the best way is to just shell out some extra cash and get the new Woo Audio WA7d. Mind you that is a $1200 DAC/AMP. I was super excited to get it. But when I received it and plugged it in. I did a comparison right away with onboard. This time I was really shocked. If you were to blindfold me, I would not be able to tell which is which when it came to the sound quality. The woo audio only had a different sound sig but by no means better or worse.
 
Lastly, I thought OK, maybe I just need to burn in the Woo Audio for a while since its tube amp and all. Left it there playing for almost 48 hours. Came back and tested. Same thing. No difference whats so ever beside the slight sound signature difference.
 
I was happy and pissed at the same time! Happy that my computer can produce this awesome sound and that I can plug my headphones straight to the jack and enjoy. But also pissed that the Woo Audio and all the other DACs/AMPs were a disappointment.
 
Does this sound right? Or am I just going deaf after all the years of listening and trying out different headphones? I am sure I am not that deaf because I can still make out many different sound signatures.
 
Also keep in mind that with all of these devices tested. All software optimizations/EQs/etc. were all OFF. Everything straight from the source.
 
I would love to hear your feedback.

 
 

Did you use only the Shure and UE? You'd likely have trouble getting a smartphone to drive it at levels where there is too much distortion that it becomes unlistenable; even my SGS3's loose bass (since it's partly also my IEMs' fault, given its bass response) isn't even something I notice on a day to day basis (note I'm too lazy to lug around one more device). The thing is every amp sounds the same given the same THD and output levels into a given load (unless one has a severe output impedance issue). Whenever amps sound different it's just that one amp is distorting more, including intentional tube distortion. If anything you can have a problem with channel imbalance but if you use software EQ on Windows and knobs on the external soundcards you used that won't be a problem.

 

[unknownsolo]

  I have the Maximus VI Formula; I think on board audio sounds God awful. I use a Sound Blaster Zx for gaming.

That S-Frame must be a nightmare to keep dust free. What made you choose reference cards over watercooled?

 
Correct me if I am wrong but the Maximus VI Formula has the older gen SupremeFX which is based on Realtek 898. Realtek 1150 is far more superior to the 898.
 
Also, like what kramer5150 mentioned, maybe because I am using very easy to drive IEMs that I just don't notice any difference when using an external setup? Maybe people with different headphones have different outcomes? I would test it with some bigger over the ear cans but I don't have any at the moment and I also returned the all the external equipment. E5, X7 and the Woo Audio since I really did not notice anything.
 
As for the S-Frame. I built it about 3 months ago and its still sparkling clean. Since it is on my desk and I keep the desk very clean. It doesn't get dirty at all. Plus, the fans and pump are all PWM and are almost stopped unless they are needed.
 
I like everything reference I guess. Really no reason for not getting the watercooled cards. But that's a whole another thread lol.

 

[unknownsolo]

   
 

Did you use only the Shure and UE? You'd likely have trouble getting a smartphone to drive it at levels where there is too much distortion that it becomes unlistenable; even my SGS3's loose bass (since it's partly also my IEMs' fault, given its bass response) isn't even something I notice on a day to day basis (note I'm too lazy to lug around one more device). The thing is every amp sounds the same given the same THD and output levels into a given load (unless one has a severe output impedance issue). Whenever amps sound different it's just that one amp is distorting more, including intentional tube distortion. If anything you can have a problem with channel imbalance but if you use software EQ on Windows and knobs on the external soundcards you used that won't be a problem.

 
I also have the Sennheiser IE800 that I barely use and think of selling actually. Compared to the Shure SE846 and the UE 18 Pro, the IE800 is a toy. Specially with that awful cable noise it has.