[herrbbiiee]

Hi all

hopefully you can help me spend my hard earned money on the right gear!

Current setup:
Sony NWZ-S618F (8GB)
Denon AHC-751 IEMS
Denon AHD200 headphones
Cowon S9 32GB (as of 4 hours ago)

Background:
I started with the NWZ-S618F and IEMS for portable use, but due to a new born baby, my full size speakers have been sold.

I therefore decided to get a headphone and DAP combo, the headphones would be for home use only, and the DAP for in-outdoors.

I decided to go for the S9, but immediately it seems too harsh with me with the headphones! I have tried several settings! All I want is a decent Audio player, am not bothered with Video or games etc!

Any advice apprecaiated. I have considered the x1060 but was put off by the fact that it doesn't support lossless (other than PCM). Is there really THAT much difference between FLAC on a S9 and MP3 on an X?

Any help appreciated!

 

[shigzeo]

Difference is up to you. If you hear the difference (and even if you don't but think you do), then it is worth it to get a DAP which supports lossless. But, most players closer to each other rather than different. There are minute differences: spacing, low or high end detail, but most of it is personal opinion.

The Sony is great for driving low ohm earphones, but hisses. The Cowon isn't good for driving low ohm phones, but has a clean HPO and good special effects. The AMP3 has good atmosphere but is as noisy as rock concert. The iPod touch is Cowon clean and drives low ohm earphones well - no effects at all. Fuze does low ohm earphones (ba and dynamic) well, but hisses about as much as the Cowon - poor EQ and sound effects.

Lossless:
iPod touch
Cowon
Fuze

Noise:
AMP3
Sony
Cowon
Fuze
iPod touch

Balanced armature driving ability:
Fuze
Sony
Touch
Cowon
AMP3

Dynamic driving ability:
Touch
Fuze
Sony
Cowon
AMP3

 

[headfever]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Difference is up to you. If you hear the difference (and even if you don't but think you do), then it is worth it to get a DAP which supports lossless. But, most players closer to each other rather than different. There are minute differences: spacing, low or high end detail, but most of it is personal opinion. The Sony is great for driving low ohm earphones, but hisses. The Cowon isn't good for driving low ohm phones, but has a clean HPO and good special effects. The AMP3 has good atmosphere but is as noisy as rock concert. The iPod touch is Cowon clean and drives low ohm earphones well - no effects at all. Fuze does low ohm earphones (ba and dynamic) well, but hisses about as much as the Cowon - poor EQ and sound effects. Lossless: iPod touch Cowon Fuze Noise: AMP3 Sony Cowon Fuze iPod touch Balanced armature driving ability: Fuze Sony Touch Cowon AMP3 Dynamic driving ability: Touch Fuze Sony Cowon AMP3

I don't agree with you on the hiss level of AMP3, it is not as the rock concert. I have an AMP3 pro2. I find it has some hiss with some senstive phones, Just like you have listed, the Sony, Cowon and other high resolution DAPs also have hiss. It depend on your ear toleration and correct pairing.

The hiss topics of AMP3 have been repeated many times. alot of users don't think hiss of AMP3 is boring. There are so many reports of the good synergy phones with AMP3 (about 30 models). I have UM 2 X, 3X, and SHURE 530, these senstive phones has evident hiss with AMP3. but most of my phones has no hiss even at night. recently, there are some detailed reviews of AMP3 which also didn't mentioned the hiss is a problem with AMP3. Any way, if the hiss can be completely solved, AMP3 will be definitly one of the best player.

 

[shigzeo]

Well, that is fine you think that way. But the AMP3 doesn't drive earphones (not even the PAA-1) that well. I like its signature, but it sound much better when driving an external amp. If you don't notice hiss that much, it is because you are not affected by it. And the recent review you speak of also is subject to the same evaluation. I have had two units, each checked by HiSound to have no defects and each passing their QC - each hiss more than any dap I have ever used.

Apart from that, it is not good for driving even dynamic earphones at less than 60 ohms. I don't care that you think it the best - that is irrelevant. The player proves itself to sound good, but its full potential can only be heard when driving outboard sources. It cannot drive resolution, separation and has a lot of distortion when driving earphones (even the OEM earphones).

I like it - it is a good idea. But if HiSound want to make the best player, they need to address it so that it can sound as good driving earphones as it does when driving an amp.

 

[foreverfi]

The hiss wth the DAP is a biger topic. Maybe it has already been disscussed at other threads. Sorry for the derailed. Also i am not the engineer of audio designing, Maybe My thingking could be wrong with some what.

Let's start from Shigzeo's list of the hiss players, say, AMP3, Sony , Conwon, Itouch, Fuze. in fact the hiss level seems as the same ranking from larger to smaller. I think it has some thing related with the resolution and out put power capablity of the players. AMP3 has a class A amp, so the hiss level is larger than Sony X, Sony X has a S amp, so, it's hiss is larger than Cowon, Cowon has specially design the amp segment, so it's hiss level is larger than Itouch. As for the other low end DAPs alway has more lower hiss level for the normal DAP applying the integrated weak ampliflier. It seems make sense.

Some DAPs has lower hiss level also sacrifice sound resolution. it is very easy to understand, the more clear and clean the sound, the more easy to explore the hiss.

You may say your hi end desk hiend amp or CD players have less hiss, you are right, for it is "desk top" which has more space to have more complexed "hiss reducing" circuit design. " space " is also a critical matter in audio designing. if fact, if you open the enclosure of the desk top adio devices, you will find out they are very "empty".

AMP3 is the smallest one among many high resolution DAPs. The battery of it has occupied half of the space, and there are a FM radio and an individual amp circuit. Everybody has the common sense he will know the risk of interference. From the technical view point, the difficulty of AMP3 is 10 times difficulty than many DAPs. you see, Radio, AMP, and DAP of AMP3 share the same battery and PCB board jamed within in so tiny enclosure. So it is no strange AMP3 has some hiss level. to be fair, If AMP3 has no any hiss to pair with any sensitive phones and fit any sensitive ears, I will pay it with USD 1000.

T51 is only applying an amp chip, HIFIMAN has a seperated amp PCB (module), And they are aslo larger than AMP3.from technical view point, I think AMP3 is really one of the advantage desgin in the market.

I have no reason to justify for any brands with flows. AMP3 is not a total perfect player at present. while to most users, the hiss level of AMP3 is acceptable. Just like in the winter, some body wear thin clothing,somebody wear lot, it is depend on your toleration. I admire Hisoundaudio's creation and contribution to the DAP market. I do hope AMP3 can be improve to a new level. I would like to predict the future DAP trend will be "hifi" direction. I hope SONY, APPLE, AND other big brands can learn something from hisoundaudio.

The hiss arguing will continue.it will never can be stop if there is an audio device. for the hiss, resolution, portable size, functions and musicality are incompatible in DAP designing. it depend on specified model how to balance among them.

So I am not too picky on hiss if it is within my tolerance limited, for I am an ordinary music lover, I can live with even Radio music. I am more care for the musicality.

To answer the riginal post question, Sony X also has hiss. Please consider your hiss tolerance. Besids it, It is a good choice I think.

 

[BassThor]

Teclast T51? If you can live with a little so-so firmware/UI.

 

[donunus]

what about the latest version of the 160 gig ipod

 

[Cosmic Fool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by herrbbiiee /img/forum/go_quote.gif . I have considered the x1060 but was put off by the fact that it doesn't support lossless (other than PCM). Is there really THAT much difference between FLAC on a S9 and MP3 on an X?

320 kb/s MP3 sound magnificent on the X! I had a Cowon i7 with FLAC-files but the X trounces it with high bitrate MP3. No kidding!

There is no harshness at all with the X. I am also very sensitive for that and I am 100% confident there won't be any harshness with your headphones too. The X is so incredibly smooth.

 

[shigzeo]

I do have problems with considering resolution the deciding factor. I have owned and used several class a amps with integrated power supplies. They hiss less than the AMP3. The problem isn't the class. The sony uses a class D amp which I have also used many times with no hiss at all.

There are issues which AMP3, Sony, etc. have not thought of. I admire the supporters of the AMP3, but I don't admire the blind faith or the support that everything is worth 10x what it actually costs. There have been too many incredulous claims with it.

I admire the vision. The follow through however, needs serious overhaul.

Class A doesn't mean better - it simply means simpler and less power efficient. Many small application amps are based on class A as efficiency isn't an issue. Power branding because of a certain class of amp, especially in portables isn't really clever enough unless points: hiss and resolution whilst driving earphones which other amps/players can do better are addressed.

With those things out of the way, I eagerly await HiSound's application of a truly high end portable; a player/amp which doesn't hiss, which can drive low ohm earphones. Even the PAA-1 isn't driven to full resolution unless the inbuilt attenuator is applied fully and the volume of the amp3 set to 25-30. This can be tested.

As for MP3 vs lossless, if it sounds good to you, that is great. I do not however condone saying lossy sounds 'better' than lossless under any circumstances. The hardware will determine playback characteristics, but the files will not sound better. It reminds me of the MD debate where Sony had people believing that ATRAC sounds better than the original lossless CD or DAT file.

 

[Tsuioku]

There's more to Class A than just simplicity and inefficiency. It is often chosen for it's linearity and responsiveness.
Inefficiency is due to the amplifier always being ON and set to a high gain which in turn, causes the hissing.

Solution? Filter out the noise before it enters the amplifier so it doesn't become a hiss. For those unfamiliar with filters, it is actually a very complex problem even though it sounds simple.


Back on topic, the only player listed here I have some experience is the Fuze which I recently picked up but not particularly impressed with its upper end. Violins and cymbals sounded dead. I liked the vocals and mids though.

Seeing the AMP3 Pro1 dropping in price, trying to hunt one down at a good price now. If this thread is still going, I'll put in my 2cents then...

 

[shigzeo]

Modern Class a/b, b and d amps can be as linear and responsive as A. And as mentioned, I have used several class a amps which hiss a lot less than the AMP3 and they are powered through the mains with integrated power circuits.

Sure things get more complicated, but before releasing 'the best dap', it would be best to provide at least the engineering to back up the claim, or beef up the power so that it obviously is only good for full size headphones. As it is, I see the AMP3 a player for the Koss Porta Pro or with an impedance adapter, dynamic iems.

The Fuze has a slight rise in its upper end frequency and the AMP3 large peaks. The AMP3 is more exciting for treble. What earphones were you using with the Fuze? it does a good job driving earphones but sometimes trips up with distortion or channel separation. either one of those could 'deaden' the sound. Again, external amp with the Fuze too, is best.

 

[herrbbiiee]

Thanks for the responses.

To clarify, I don't find the S9 hissy, I find the detail astounding, far better than my sony, the dynamic range is very impressive, but it doesn't sound musical at all. The end result is that my ears find it hard to listen to for longer than 30 mins at a time, and has several times left me with a mild headache! The sony on the other hand, gets my feet tapping without me even knowing!

I know the S9 has rave reviews, I did a fair bit of research before buying it and am sure that it sounds awesome when paired with the right headphones, just not the AHD2000's (in my opinion). Therefore its going back.

Other options I am considering are:
Sony X series
New Sony A series (if I can wait for the 32gb to be released in the UK)
Ipod touch, with a decent amp

 

[Tsuioku]

I was doing some testing with a friend comparing a Clip V1 and Fuze V2 on a set of UM2s and SR225s. I liked the frequency response of the V1 much better but the lower SNR kinda sucks as well as some crazy hissing with the UM2s. Wonder if I got a dud like the OP of the Fuze appreciation thread.

Class B is actually a non-linear amplifier.
Class A-B is considered linear but more-so with higher output applications so that crossover distortion has less of an effect. Response is definitely close to Class A.
Class D is linear but high speed components become more important due to its complexity for response.

How would you say the size of the better Class A amps compare with the AMP3? Circuit density also plays a role due to electronic noise as well as extra space for filters (which alone is easily the size of the audio circuitry). Another solution could also be increasing the SNR.
I agree that beefing up the output may make it a more marketable device since higher impedance headphones are needed to attenuate the hiss but reducing the hiss will be a better long term solution.
Higher output = higher gain = higher hiss = even higher impedance headphones = realm of external amps.

Have you tried the the newer Pro2? I recall reading it has lower hiss. The main bottleneck on the AMP3 is their "Affordable" directive. It will be interesting to see what they come up with in the Master series when price becomes a lower factor.

@OP: Since most of these players are in ABI Top 5, have you considered the P3 and Zune?

 

[shigzeo]

I have the V2 Fuze and the FR while not perfectly flat (only rises about 0.5 dbl) is very good, even with extremely hard to drive earphones. A little hiss, but not much.

OP: the S9 may be pretty good, but you may find that its dynamic range isn't as good as the Sony, nor 'detail'. The sony simply has more low and mid details and any player with that output as well as upper detail, will default sounding warmer and thicker. The S9's ouput is trained upward by about 0,5 to 1 dbl in upper treble, so 'detail' is speculative.

I have the AMP3 Pro2 - have had two versions which are hand-checked by HiSound. I really like HiSound's philosophy, but it is obvious that it must be applied to as you say, either a larger enclosure to separate components, or higher spec innards. They advertise the Class A as being the best as it is the only, but at the same time everyone defends it by saying that because of Class A things are off. Obviously, the thing needs to really be re-engineered for real performance.

It can sound good, but it really needs more power and to mention on the package: for outboard amps or for extremely high ohm, low sensitivity headphones. But then, it had better power them. The included earphones, as I said, can get good output, but they need to have their impedance augmented by the attenuator. Set to low, they get pretty sad bass response and the whole player is constrained. It wants higher impedance (100 or more?), but then it doesn't do 100 or more as well as an outboard amp.

I love it for powering external amps - in fact for certain music, more than my other sources.