[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypasswordis /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, Grados with flats may be what you're talking about, because the drivers are actually right next to the person's ears. People say bowls add some sort of soundstage because they add distance from the drivers to the ears, much like most other headphones' earpads. I think I somewhat know what the OP is talking about, and I do think bringing the drivers closer in will help. There's a certain thinness of sound that some call analytical or cold, which the OP may say as having an "artifical distance." Sometimes some of the resonance and timbre cannot be heard, as if one is listening from far away.

Well I've tried Grados with bowls, flats, comfies, and they all sound like Grados to me

IMO, bowls don't do a whole lot for soundstage but do change the tonality. They don't put the driver that much far backward. I haven't tried the cirumaurals though....just up to HF-1 (which actually was very well balanced)

And since I've been biased against the k501, I think you are right mypasswordis. Seems like k501 fans tape the outside of the pads for exra bass. I also feel that the pads are too big....heck the cups are too big in diameter IMO. So it pushes the driver back (creating large soundstage, and a possible loss of bass impact). Taping and flattening the pads may help.

 

[SeagramSeven]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif I also think it's rather pointless too because everyone's setup is different.

If posting sound clips is pointless because everyone's equipment is different, it is then equally pointless to even have these discussions in the first place, as everyones' audible preferences are equally different. Hi-Finthen may listen to Davesrose's setup and say "This sounds like veiled garbage", yet when he(davesrose) listens to it he decides it is the best thing he has ever heard. Both can be true for them.

Posting clips for people to hear, along with explanations for how they sound to you on your setup, is infinitely more useful than a blob of text that says "I found it cold and distant" vs "I found it close and warm".

[Sidenote edit: I do not tape my 501's or do anything else to artificially increase their inherent bass quantity]

 

[Superpredator]

Certain headphones have what I've found to be a natural headstage... the drivers might be very close to my ears, but it actually sounds as though the music is coming from beyond the drivers. With the HF-1 and Darkvoice 336i I was getting DT880-like wideness, which I didn't expect at all. The HF-1s kind of disappeared and so did the sense that I was listening with headphones. With the K501 the drivers are far from my ears, and it sounds that way. That, to me, isn't headstage. Sure, the presentation feels extremely roomy and open, but with most music it never really sounds all that natural. It just sounds very much like the drivers are far away from my ears. To me headstage isn't the spacial differences my ears pick up between where the sound is being reproduced and where my ears are, it's the dimensions and space of the reproduction of the recording.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeagramSeven /img/forum/go_quote.gif If posting sound clips is pointless because everyone's equipment is different, it is then equally pointless to even have these discussions in the first place, as everyones' audible preferences are equally different. Hi-Finthen may listen to Davesrose's setup and say "This sounds like veiled garbage", yet when he(davesrose) listens to it he decides it is the best thing he has ever heard. Both can be true for them.

Well the OP is definitely not satisfied with the k501 right now....for all the reasons that it normally gets complaints for. Soundstage is too big and too little bass impact. So why can't we suggest what's usually suggested: change in headphone, amp, or pad alteration??

When I'm deciding on buying a new peice of equipment, I read reviews as well as ask general questions here. Especially here, I do know most of this is opinion. The endless threads on the k701 vs HD650 is a prime example: especially when we start asking that silly question: "which headphone is the most neutral?"....any one of them could be. Not just based on music preference, but system as well. Well we're getting off the OP, so that's all I'm going to say.

 

[mypasswordis]

I bought my K501 with K701 velour earpads from here, and switch between them somewhat frequently, depending on my current mood or for reasons of comfort (K501 earpads are kind of hard on the skin, K701 earpads get hot after a while). The K701 definitely has an effect on sound, causing soundstage and airiness to decrease slightly, while adding some of that resonance that gets lost using the K501 earpads, as well as a certain weightiness to the sound. I'm not entirely sure which I like better, I suppose it just depends on the music and my mood. Just some more food for thought.

 

[HFat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superpredator /img/forum/go_quote.gif To me headstage isn't the spacial differences my ears pick up between where the sound is being reproduced and where my ears are, it's the dimensions and space of the reproduction of the recording.

That's what I'd call soundstage.
What I call headstage is not really where the sound is reproduced but rather where you hear the sounds coming from.

My understanding is that the consensus headstage vs. soundstage definition is here: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=41442

 

[regal]

Let me explain further. I am an electric guitar Aficionado. And the AKG 501 is very good a reproducing an electric guitar's tone. I have found that if the mix has the guitar panned left or right the sound is great

However a lot of mixes have the guitar dead center and on these phones it just makes the guitar sound like it is playing in the next room behind a sheet of drywall. You can even lopside your balance and things start to sound better. The effect is on vocals too but to a lesser degree. Now my opinion is a guitar shouldn't be mixed dead center but I have a lot of recordings where it is.

So I am leaning toward a closed phone to get the music closer and also beccause my wife always has the TV turned up too loud to listen with open phones.

 

[HFat]

What about mono?

 

[Davesrose]

regal, have you tried a Grado? Especially if you like electric guitar, that sounds like Grado to me. It's very close sounding and has an overall brightness good for vocals and electric guitar (accoustic is hit or miss, classical guitar is much better on my Senns IMO). Grados are as open as the k501, but people tend keep the volume down lower because of the brightness.

 

[Superpredator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFat /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's what I'd call soundstage. What I call headstage is not really where the sound is reproduced but rather where you hear the sounds coming from. My understanding is that the consensus headstage vs. soundstage definition is here: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=41442

I found this in that thread: "The difference between soundstage and head-stage is illusion and reality. The soundstage is the (desired) illusion; the headstage the (unfortunate) reality." This seems to be the opposite of what your interpretation is, although perhaps our language constructs are just different. I generally use the terms headstage/soundstage interchangeably, but by the definition in that thread I'd say the headstage on the K501 (with many recordings) is too apparent and the soundstage isn't very realistic. "[W]here you hear the sounds coming from" could either refer to where you hear the sounds coming from around your head (headstage) and where you hear the sounds coming from in the image (soundstage), so I guess I'm unclear as to what you're saying.

 

[ProzacMessiah]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose Well the OP is definitely not satisfied with the k501 right now....for all the reasons that it normally gets complaints for. Soundstage is too big and too little bass impact.

I don't see where the OP has complained about the K501's bass in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by regal I am an electric guitar Aficionado. And the AKG 501 is very good a reproducing an electric guitar's tone. I have found that if the mix has the guitar panned left or right the sound is great However a lot of mixes have the guitar dead center and on these phones it just makes the guitar sound like it is playing in the next room behind a sheet of drywall. You can even lopside your balance and things start to sound better. The effect is on vocals too but to a lesser degree.

I think the K501 does a good job with guitars as well. Can you give a couple of example tracks where you experience a hole in the soundstage? If I have any of the same recordings, I'll check them out on both my K501s and my MS-1s to see if the change in headphones fixes the problem--assuming I hear the hole in the K501s.

 

[HFat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superpredator /img/forum/go_quote.gif I found this in that thread: "The difference between soundstage and head-stage is illusion and reality. The soundstage is the (desired) illusion; the headstage the (unfortunate) reality."

This is lyrical nonsense as far as I'm concerned. The next paragraph actually explains what he's talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superpredator /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'd say the headstage on the K501 (with many recordings) is too apparent and the soundstage isn't very realistic.

This is also my impression of my stock K501... except that I would nuance it because I sometimes enjoyed the distracting headstage and the realism of the soundstage depends on the recording as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superpredator /img/forum/go_quote.gif "[W]here you hear the sounds coming from" could either refer to where you hear the sounds coming from around your head (headstage) and where you hear the sounds coming from in the image (soundstage), so I guess I'm unclear as to what you're saying.

Agreed, I wasn't clear at all.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProzacMessiah /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't see where the OP has complained about the K501's bass in this thread.

The OP hasn't specifically complained about anything. He has said that it sounds as though the guitar is being played in the next room. That sounds to me as though it's the usual traits: too colored in one end of the spectrum (tonally comprimised, since there's not enough bass impact and it's "dry wall" sounding) as well as not enough soundstage (distant sounding). Now if he likes the detail of the k501 on his system, then that seems like Grado IMO.

 

[Mrvile]

Reading some of the comments from earlier in the thread...

I can't believe people are arguing over other peoples' preferences. Who cares if someone is looking for a different sound in a headphone? The point of buying a headphone is getting something that you'll like, thus finding your ideal sound signature before building a rig.

Distortion isn't always a bad thing...yes it does change the sound, but sometimes for the better. If we're looking for a warmer, more distorted sound, we look for a warmer amp. Why else are there so many amps out? And if distortion is so bad, what's the point of tubes in the first place? There isn't a specific thing that an amp "should" do...each amp is different, and some people like the sound of certain amps over others. I'm also a big proponent of EQ and other so-called "artificial" sound additives - if something in a headphone doesn't sound right to me or how I like, I'll EQ it, it's that simple. Ok so it is artificial...hell, every aspect of the audio playback world is artificial!!

The point is, there isn't a way a headphone or an amp or any audio component "should" sound...everything is up to us. Some people like warmer sound, others like analytical. If someone finds that a headphone like the K501 is missing something, they add to it - how they want it to sound, not how it "should" sound.

 

[regal]

Thankyou for the intellegent replies.

Specific recordings :

Grateful Dead Fillmore East '69 (the new one, it has Jerry dead center)
vs
Grateful Dead Live Dead (Jerry is slightly left)

These are both from the same multi-tracks and Dark Star is the same performance. With the new mix Jerry is dead center and sounds as if he is playing behind a wall w/the AKG501's. With the old mix he is slightly left and all is well. It was these two releases which really made me think something is amiss with these phones. Its like dead center with these phones is 20 ft away. Funny thing is a little reverb DSP and things are OK..