[goodsguys]

Hi And thanks for reading this post.
 
I am trying to build a pc for music and movies and needed to know which motherboard to buy, a mobo with high quality soundcard and graphics card built in.
 
Not interested in separate mobo and sound/graphics cards
 
My amp and speakers are two channel stereo.
 
I have looked around but the higher end mobos all seem to be adding features for gaming, which i am trying to avoid.
 
Can anyone please advise, a mobo with high end sound and graphics card, with minimum gaming features, 2 channel stereo, don't want to pay extra for dts dolby licensing..
 
Many thanks in advance. John.

 

[prot]

The gamer boards have the best sound chips and afaik you cannot have one without the other

 

[yay101]

Brix size mini PC + kodibuntu.

Cuboxi + kodi.

Raspberry pi + add-on soundcard + kodi.

The very baseline for audio these days is fine for TV and music. At least if you don't want a better DAC. All options above have hardware decoding.

 

[lazerbeam]

I'm planning on an HTPC soon as well. I second that you should look at a mini PC based on NUC platform. Significantly more powerful than last year's model and have little to no issue with 1080p as they are designed from get/go as primarily htpc use case (and get stronger Intel onboard graphics). Sound will likely be decent and you can likely upgrade sound via a decent DAC later (or repurpose one if you have one) as NUC will have usb as well as spdif.

 

[goodsguys]

H. Thanks for the replies , much appreciated.
 
At the moment i have an hp elitebook 8570p as the source and this is hooked up to an audiolab m-dac via usb for the audio.
 
For the picture i am using the hp's hdmi output hooked up to a projector.
 
i've tried a few sound devices and there is a small improvement when compared to the onboard codec, but the difference is so small I'm trying to figure out why this is.
 
The local pc shop told me that onboard graphics and audio is so good most of their customers use that rather than dacs and soundcards
 
I purchased an audiolab m-dac (£600) - Slight improvement over onboard
 
I pulled out a few old soundcards i have lying around Asus xonar dx2 (£100) and creative soundblaster x-fi pro (£250) and hooked them up to a gigabyte mobo - small improvement again over onboard realtek alc889a hd, really not even worth bothering with.
 
I'm trying to get more specifics about what i should buy before shelling out any more money because my experimenting is giving different results from your suggestions
 
For audio I hear analog devices AD1988B is the best
ALC898 for realtek
 
Also have noticed top end boards use Cmedia 6632A, and Realtek ALC 1150
 
For graphics i have the phenom quad core 3ghz cpu
 
Could you please comment, am i going in the right direction at all.
 
Many thanks. John.

 

[lazerbeam]

Well I think it partly depends on what you're running the sound to. Onboard graphics is so good even on mobile Celeron chips used by the NUC that 1080p is no problem. If you're not gaming no issue at all.

Sounds depend how good the equipment is. If the equipment doesn't show that much of a difference using an expensive DAC I'd use onboard and upgrade later when things in the audio chain get upgrades.

In my htpc I don't plan to use a dac because the dac in my receiver is a pretty decent burr brown. Anything that travels through hdmi has sounded great on my speakers. Whenever I've used a device's dac and ran analog through my amp sound was worse.

Have you considered maybe selling the amp, keeping your existing computer and driving a new amp via the hdmi?

For media consumption I'd look at a sff box like a nuc or brix

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
My amp and speakers are two channel stereo.
 
I have looked around but the higher end mobos all seem to be adding features for gaming, which i am trying to avoid.
 
Can anyone please advise, a mobo with high end sound and graphics card, with minimum gaming features, 2 channel stereo, don't want to pay extra for dts dolby licensing..

 

The reality is that gaming boards are built specifically to have good sound hardware to drive headphones directly (or feed speakers), but with the emphasis on headphones and communications in online gaming, the sound processing becomes necessary - specifically, headphone surround simulation. The only mobos that have good sound hardware but no DSP are some of the ASRock gaming boards, and even then, paying "extra" for MSI for example isn't that much more expensive.

Some of the mobos built for more extreme overclocking also bundle the DSP with the decent audio hardware for example while some don't (or have neither), but they will also be a lot more expensive than the red motherboards since they have even beefier power supplies and larger coolers for their components. In the case of Asus, some of the Gryphon boards even have heatsinks that have ports ready for running the same heatsinks through a custom water cooling loop. Basically, apart from ASRock, if you went for these boards you will just end up paying way more for features you won't need.

 

Since you have an amplifier and speakers, and you don't need the DSP anyway, why not just get a DAC, if at least so you can send a Redbook-standard 2volt (give or take 0.2volts, since some DAC designs "cheat" in subjective evaluations) line signal to the amplifier?

 

Alternately you could look into one of the newer Network-capable 2ch receivers from Yamaha and Onkyo? These are relatively expensive* but look at what you can get. Since they're network capable, then if all you need to do with the HTPC is strictly for media viewing or listening (in other words, no gaming), then you can nyx the HTPC altogether since Network-capable receivers hook up directly to the (W)LAN through which they can access a hard drive** and then you can use an app on a tablet or smartphone as a remote control where you can view the contents of the HDDs.*** If the stereo models can access and pass on video via their own HDMI ports then even if you want to view movies you can still just use the Network receiver without the need to put together an HTPC.

 

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/hifi-components/stereo-receivers/r-n500_u/?mode=model

http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=TX-8160&class=Receiver&source=prodClass

 

 

 

*especially when 5ch receivers are around the same price if not less, but of course having a circuit designed specifically for 2ch without a complex DSP might be preferable for some, myself included

**

look for Seagate and WD models that can hook up via LAN; alternately, most of them have USB host inputs for storage media

***these were initially designed to simplify browsing with a player interface on the tablet or smartphone being easier to operate with a touchscreen vs buttons on a remote while looking at a non-touch/motion sensor TV, while allowing for control from Zone2 without going over to the primary location; for stereo receivers in particular, if used solely for audio, that means the receiver on its own can function as a Headless Audio Server, instead of going through the more complex set-up of a MacMini, Android miniPC, or Intel/Windows NUC

 

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Given Network-capable receivers nowadays plus the cost of an HTPC barring a $100 or less Android miniPC, I really can't see much of a point for separate and bulky HTPCs except if you intend to use them for something else, like anything that has to do with its graphics card - like using it as a file server with many HDDs and using it also to edit and back up photos (and videos). One other use is lighter gaming - obviously one can't play Skyrim on these but for someone like me who might have friends over (and we all grew up in the 1990s) Street Fighter IV and V, Mortal Kombat, Injustice, etc are the kinds of games I'd play on an HT system with guests especially if I wouldn't need a console otherwise (plus they can just bring their own XBox controllers which all work on PCs). Unless it's a really good amplifier from NAD or Cayin that you already have, spending $500 on a Network stereo receiver (plus a bit more on the external drives) is something to consider instead of spending the same money on an HTPC.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodsguys /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

The local pc shop told me that onboard graphics and audio is so good most of their customers use that rather than dacs and soundcards

 

I purchased an audiolab m-dac (£600) - Slight improvement over onboard

 

I pulled out a few old soundcards i have lying around Asus xonar dx2 (£100) and creative soundblaster x-fi pro (£250) and hooked them up to a gigabyte mobo - small improvement again over onboard realtek alc889a hd, really not even worth bothering with.

 

I'm trying to get more specifics about what i should buy before shelling out any more money because my experimenting is giving different results from your suggestions

 

For audio I hear analog devices AD1988B is the best

ALC898 for realtek

 

Also have noticed top end boards use Cmedia 6632A, and Realtek ALC 1150

 

For graphics i have the phenom quad core 3ghz cpu

 

Regarding video, the reality is that unless you're running 3D games, there's really no need to get a graphics card. Even my AMD A8-powered laptop runs Street Fighter IV with no problems, but of course I lower the graphics settings compared to my gaming desktop (I play SFIV over lunch at work, and by now I just have an XBox controller at home while an older Logitech is permanently in my bag). It's hard to find any on-board graphics processor nowadays that can't run 1080P movies.

 

As for audio there really is little to be gained with an external DAC. If anything at least you can send a fixed 2volt (+/-) signal to an amplifier designed to just take that kind of signal without having to mess around with software volume controls. A DAC and amp in the same chassis, like many designed to drive headphones or like Direct Digital* amplifiers for speakers, have advantages in shortening the analog signal path (especially DD), but again the thing is it's not really the DAC chip itself but a better analogue output stage and shorter analogue signal path (DAC+HPamp designs) if not bypassing the analogue output stage altogether (DirectDigital*). Personally though $99 for a decent DAC or $300 for a DAC-HPamp aren't bad for the minimal gains, considering they would have other functions, but preferably DirectDigital. In your application though I'd still cast my vote more towards a Network receiver instead of an HTPC, with DAC or not. Maybe spend a little bit more for the larger NAD model** because AFAIK theirs is a modular design - if at any point there is any significant technical advancement in digital audio you can swap out the DAC section if at least for the connectivity or format compatibility.
 

*DACs output goes directly into amplifier output stage, DSP upsamples so that software volume control will ensure that even a 16bit signal will not dip below 16bits at the lowest setting). 

**D3020 and another one are mini DAC+amplifier designs; the C390DD has the swappable modules. One of them has USB and another has HDMI, so AFAIK it can also work as a Network receiver, with the advantage over the Japanese models being that it's a Direct Digital design.

http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi-amplifiers/C-390DD-Direct-Digital-Powered-DAC-Amplifier

 

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That said, just to be more thorough, let's do a quick run of other factors aside from how modern digital gear don't suck as much compared to dedicated hifi sources/DACs. First is that, at least in the case of the computer shop's customers, I am not really too hardware-obsessed with gaming audio aside from not distorting badly and the need for DSP precisely because to begin with sound effects won't really sound that much different from one system to another barring huge differences in response and distortion. On top of that, and again specifically with gaming, one's attention span is focused on too many stimuli - like visuals, game objectives, communications, etc - to really notice anything aside from a totally different headphone (where comfort also matters) or speaker. 

One other factor that narrows the gap in performance is room acoustics. Many PC-based audio set-ups barring those used for recording and mastering (in which case they would be using professional PC/Mac audio hardware that has the proper audio inputs and outputs anyway) are usually not in a dedicated listening room with good acoustic treatment, so the already small improvements with better DACs (or interface devices, as some would use them over HiFi DACs even if they aren't doing any pro work) would be further affected by the noise floor and reflections. As it is it's not likely for many living rooms to have some acoustic panels, or even be large enough to not need them as much.

 

At the same time there are audiophile gear that actually have more distortion deliberately designed (or modded deliberately to introduce such) to sound more pleasing rather than neutral, and in some cases people do hear a difference, they just have no idea that in such cases the motherboard or $99 DAC or amp might actually be more accurate than whatever they're using to make the sound take on whatever flowery audiophile adjectives they can pile into the review. 

 

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In any case, at least look up the Network receivers and some LAN-capable external HDDs/servers. As much as you can build a silent miniITX HTPC with a lot of cooling potential to protect the hardware, really these are more useful if you plan on editing photos or gaming on the same machine; miniPCs and NUCs can be cheap (unless you go for a MacMini), but in case you'll just be sitting down listening to music (or blasting music for background to whatever you're doing), the player+remote app for the Network receivers are a more convenient way of running it than having to set-up a headless server or having to run the HDTV all the time (and if you're like me who prefers listening in dim lighting, one additional step will be to change the settings on the HDTV to dim it).

 

[lazerbeam]

I agree with Protégé. If your receiver is older it may be worth upgrading it for network functionality. Also new receiver will have hdmi input so you can piggy back off it's dac.

I'm holding on to my receiver because I paid alot for it and it's dac is quite decent. Lower end avr may not have a great dac. But your pc sounds capable already as a source.

 

[goodsguys]

Man you guys don't know how much I appreciate everyone's input
 
THANK YOU!!!
 
It's going to take a little while to read and digest all this info, but i will get back to you to tomorrow
once i have gone through it all.
 
1. All my stuff is on hard drive so don't need streaming facilities. Would it be a good idea to buy a media player
since these are just small pc's optimized for a/v use. It seems like an all in one box solution to my problems. i was told they are not bad if i can find one with good audio dacs and graphics card. Problem is they seem to have good video but bad audio and there are so many different makes and models don't know which way to go.
 
2. Or should i stick with the build my own pc route. You mentioned Asrock and asus could you be a little more specific and give model numbers of mobos. Would be great if a could get a board with everything on it good sound and video
 
3. I did install kodi/xbmc ( OpenElec os) on my pc but there was no eq for the audio, can't live without an eq, went back to win 7 running nero media player the picture and sound quality was better than Openelec JRiver media player was close to Nero.
 
4. Would it be ok to keep using the m-dac for audio. I was told it totally bypasses the pc hardware and takes  zeros and ones via usb from the pc. It won best dac up to £1k in what hifi magazine three years in a row, but in real life makes no difference when compared to on board codecs
 
Thank you. John

 

[yay101]

3. Any perceived difference in quality is from extra processing your applications are doing. By default xbmc does zero processing to picture or audio, and audio is bit perfect.

Just a fyi.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodsguys /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

1. All my stuff is on hard drive so don't need streaming facilities. Would it be a good idea to buy a media player

since these are just small pc's optimized for a/v use. It seems like an all in one box solution to my problems. i was told they are not bad if i can find one with good audio dacs and graphics card. Problem is they seem to have good video but bad audio and there are so many different makes and models don't know which way to go.

 

If you use a DAC then no need to worry about the audio, you just need to make sure that whatever output the miniPC or mediabox has, your DAC has one as input. Similarly, if you get a Network audio player, you're not really stuck with streaming and then buying an external HDD with LAN connection - they usually have one USB port so a simpler external HDD, or you buy an enclosure to put your internal drive in (Antec sells one for around $29 in the US for example, houses a 3.5in drive - I have two of those to recycle older 1TB drives as back-ups), but of course the LAN port still needs to be connected to use remote apps. Still, that saves you the cost of a network HDD, for now at least, but that actually means you can just save up for a real server with user-swappale/easily swappable HDDs (like what photogs use as back-up servers, but avoid brands that don't actually allow easy access to the HDDs).

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodsguys /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

2. Or should i stick with the build my own pc route. You mentioned Asrock and asus could you be a little more specific and give model numbers of mobos. Would be great if a could get a board with everything on it good sound and video

 

I briefly went to PCPartPicker and did a build in a small case, with an inexpensive AMD APU with less known stuttering issues on 1080P playback (CPU+GPU in one, except these have better GPU chips than older Intel CPUs), plus a decent cooler to let it run all day, and a gaming motherboard with good audio...and it'll all still end up at just under $500, but without the cost of a Windows copy factored in (you'll need to use Linux if you want it free). This is partly because mITX boards are more expensive than mATX, and then some cases are either too small and will need noisy fans to move more air through a cooler with a smaller fin area, or you spend a bit more on the case to get a slightly more expensive but quieter yet more effective cooler. 

 

And then there's the power supply. You don't need a lot of power, but while cheap and low output power supplies are easy to find, they are made for ATX form factors. In most cases a quality PSU will be better off the bigger they are, because that means a larger fan and less cramped components, better for cooling and for noise from that fan since it doesn't need to work too hard; however cheap power supplies tend to come with cheap, noisy fans. On top of that, cables are built into ATX PSUs with the assumption that at worst they'll be used in a microATX enclosure, meaning that if you go for a miniITX build to keep the size to a minimum, not having modular cables means you have a mess of cables everywhere that will only get in the way of airflow, which to effectively cool your computer will mean that all the fans will have to wrok a lot harder, and hence more noise.

 

At the same time I couldn't get a mobo with decent audio built in because it's harder to find Gaming boards for these, and worse, the new ones aren't in yet while the older ones are getting phased out, so even if they show up on the PC builder the prices aren't there, so I had to go with a soundcard. The price could be a little lower if you had a gaming board, but there's no way to tell by how much until the new ones come out so it'll be easier to get concrete pricing on the processor and the gaming motherboard that has a good audio section.

 

If I replace the PSU for example for a modular unit to keep the cables out of the way it'd be a little around $30 more using the Fractal Design Edison 450w PSU - triple the requirements of your system - and yet it's semi-modular. Silverstone has a more expensive and more compact PSU but with a smaller 80mm fan it's known to get noisy, but not sure if it will still be so with the kind of load you'll be running (likely not, but I'm trying to be safe in terms of noise). 

 

With all the complexities involved with building and designing a small, silent, but properly cooled computer, the same money would be better spent again on a Network receiver. Even if you just use the USB host for external HDDs and the LAN only for remote apps now just the cost of the computer, plus the complexity of designing a compact PC that will run cool enough all day and even with hte relatively modest performance requirements (barring what you need for audio), the network receiver really is a lot simpler option. Plus you only need to keep one box, whereas you have to keep several boxes (and without an ATX-size case, they won't all fit into the ITX case box) in case one of them breaks, and that also means potentially different distributors/manufacturers to deal with.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodsguys /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

3. I did install kodi/xbmc ( OpenElec os) on my pc but there was no eq for the audio, can't live without an eq, went back to win 7 running nero media player the picture and sound quality was better than Openelec JRiver media player was close to Nero.

 

Among cheap players that also do video I think the only one with a good EQ is VLC Media Player.

 

If you use an Android miniPC instead you can run NeutronMusicPlayer, which has more EQ adjustments than even car audio processors, but it doesn't do video. I'm not sure if there are any video player apps with EQ features comparable to VLC (I think there's an Android version though).

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodsguys /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

4. Would it be ok to keep using the m-dac for audio. I was told it totally bypasses the pc hardware and takes  zeros and ones via usb from the pc. It won best dac up to £1k in what hifi magazine three years in a row, but in real life makes no difference when compared to on board codecs

 

Yes, if you use a PC, and that will convert the audio signal from high res movies to a 16bit PCM signal. But doesn't that have SPDIF? If you use an Android miniPC that will be a better option due to USB driver issues regarding compatibility.

 

[goodsguys]

Hi. Thanks for the replies.
 
What i am after is more specific answers Model numbers of motherboards with quality graphics and audio onboard.
 
I don't know enough about electronics to figure it out but whatever i plug into my pc makes little or no improvement in a/v terms compared to onboard.
 
For audio the external dacs route and pci soundcards seems to yield little headway, different graphics cards makes little difference from onboard perhaps movies is not an intensive job and most any graphics cards are good enough.
 
I thought if i can get a good mobo in the first place then plug my amp and screen straight into this, it might be the simplest and cheapest way. Some boards boast nichicon capacitors and swappable opamps
 
Thanks for all the answers concerning networking, power supplies with respect this is not the information i am after
 
Finally are there any thoughts on standalone media players such as Dune or Popcorn hour since these are small pc's designed for a/v would these compare favourably against pc's
 
Many thanks. John.

 

[lazerbeam]

Not sure why you'd bother upgrading the pc if you acknowledge it won't improve your sound or graphics. Your computer is already doing is job and you are lucky enough to have an hdmi out put already (mine doesn't).

If you can't tell the difference in sound I'd venture to say it's your avr that is the weak link not mobo.

I still think protégé suggestion is best one. If you get a network ready avr you'd likely get better sound and ability to bypass a computer to do what you want in the first place (play music and or video)

 

[lazerbeam]

And for what it's worth if you want a small capable pc to plug into avr I still think the nuc form factor is best (intel nuc/gigabyte brix).

Mini iTX cases are way larger and very few are suitably designed for htpc purposes. The designs are usually small gaming rigs with power supplies that are overkill for your purpose. Nuc ff is powered enough to do basic tasks and media consumption.

 

[pixelwitch]

You'd be best off getting one of gigabyte's motherboards with a dedicated, low noise USB port for USB audio and a USB DAC, which you can plug into your reciever (essentially replacing any need for a CD player). I'm not sure if this has been implemented in any of their mini-itx form factor boards, but if that is the case that would be highly useful for HTPC usage as it would allow you to use an akasa euler for a case, which passively cools your CPU (assuming a 35W TDP like a T suffix processor) which is optimal for audio, really.