[Mintz]

After research on a pair of headphones I was planning to order (Sennheiser HD 25-1 II) I read online that if you are using these for with a portable device, I would be using it with an Ipod, that they would be greatly benefitted by a headphone amp. I did some research into what a headphone amp does and based on what I read I got the impression that it just makes your music sound louder coming from your portable device (although I should admit I was confused by the explanation I read, there were a bunch of weird equations I didn't understand). If this is true couldn't I just turn up the volume on my Ipod? Or would the Ipod lack the power to run the headphones or something, making them sound really quiet? I was planning on ordering these headphones soon and I would not make my order if they would not work well on my Ipod. However, I looked at the prices of headphone amps and they are pretty expensive. I assume for the price they do more then just increase the volume of the music coming from a portable. If someone could give me a basic explanation of what these headphone amps do I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[nvkid909]

you don't need an amp for ipod / HD25-1. they're closed & very efficient, even at 70ohm. in fact this is a really great pairing.

it's senns "hi-fi" range that need to be amped with an ipod... but then they'd also leak alot of sound, as they're open.

 

[Mintz]

Thanks for letting me know that I won't need one, but could someone please simplify what they actually do? I am curious because I did not know they head amps specifically for headphones. The explanation I read online left me confused and let me to believe that they just make the music sound louder on your portable device.

 

[nvkid909]

crikey, thought they'd have all jumped on this by now, probably too simple for them

. but no, seriously (let me explain with my limited knowledge)

these bigger 'hifi' cans (most of which are discussed in these forums), require more power to drive them in order for them to sound like their full potential. probably because they are bigger speakers, often open cans (a grill on the outside, the design of them is for sound quality rather than efficiency so they need plenty of juice from an amp for them to sound their fullest. you'll see in the specs upwards of 50 ohms (HD650 is 300 ohm).

the HD25-1 drivers are smaller than hifi cans & enclosed in plastic - the sound goes to your ears only, they can't "breathe" like open cans do. the driver design, pads, enclosure make a very efficient headphone & an ipod can drive them well. you're keeping most of the sound to yourself with these.
you'll get a different kind of sound with closed cans (less soundstage & more bass) than open or hifi cans. if you amp the HD25 you're gonna make THAT sound more powerful, but they still won't sound like open cans.

smaller cans like PX100 or earphones are around or under 30 ohms, the speakers are tiny, some are of closed design. they're designed to be driven by personal stereos, not big amps*. but when they're this small it doesn't really make any difference to a personal stereo, output wise.

*there are some earphones or 'in-ear monitors' that are designed for musicians more poweful equipment too.

a good amp won't just up the volume - it amplifies the audio signal to your cans. if they're big enough they will accept this "fuller" audio signal without distortion & your cans will show their appreciation by singing to you

maybe someone will explain it better...

 

[qusp]

OK well here we go; 70ohms is in fact not overly efficient, no matter what the design; its not overly inefficient either, but sufficiently middle of the road enough that a portable amp would actually give them more control. also the HP out of many ipods is not at all ideal in that many are noisy and under-powered. with a portable amp->ipod pairing, most like to use a Line Out Dock or LOD; this connects at the bottom of the ipod and takes a cleaner unamped signal from there; passes ths signal onto the portable amp, which has more power available to it to allow a higher degree of control of the drivers, providing better definition and extension (means it goes lower in bass and higher in the highs) soundstage and transient response will also be notably improved. you can spend between $20 and $1000USD on a portable amp and 10-$250USD on a LOD cable. The noise floor of the line out signal or signal to noise level is greatly improved, so detail is easier to resolve. whether the improvement is worth the extra expense and size of the rig is worth it to you is personal. for instance my typical portable rig that I just removed from my pocket is a DIYMOD (modified ipod)->capped LOD->pico portable amp and SE530 with custom tips. my high quality transportable rig consists of DIYMOD->teflon VCAP dock->low profile RCA cables->Lisa III->woodied, recabled Denon D2000.

many easier to drive HP's benefit from a portable amp as well and impedance is not at all the be all and end all of figures that tell you if a HP will be easily driven, given a rated output. efficiency and sensitivity combine to give you an idea and even then you generally have to try to see. Regardless; the ipod HP out is not very impressive; IMO the only ipods that have a passable (but still not overly powerful) HP out are the iphone 3G and touch 2G. Most will benefit from amping via the lineout dock.

 

[Mintz]

Wow, those responses definitely made more sense then what I read online. Some of the terms I didn't know but I get the general idea. Thanks a lot for the explanation!

 

[SVghost]

People, people. Were talking to an "outsider" here! He dosent know what a sound stage is, or all these fancy terms.

Lets make this short and simple, ill use an analogy of sorts...

An ipod+headphones is like a regular old tv or a youtube video. You basicly see the focus of whats showing, but dont get any sence of imersion or detail.

A Ipod+LOD+Headphone Amp+Headphones is like watching an imax movie. Not only do you get the focus of whats showing, your completly emersed in whats on screen! You could count the hairs on a persons eyelash kinda detail.

I exadurate some, but you get the idea. And of cource the quality of the music your putting on your ipod is going to be the final factor. If you can get all your music at a bitrate of 320kbs MP3 its almost imposible to hear the diffrence betweene it and a CD.

From there, it all depends on how much you want to spend.

My recomendation, get the headphones, and use them with your ipod for a while. Then put some high quality music 320kbs MP3's on your ipod and see how you like that. If you still would like more sound quality, come on back to this site and do some research on this stuff.

Your gonna need:
4 Portable Setup:
-Mp3 player (preferably with a line out)
-LOD (if you have a ipod)
-Headphone Amp (look in the forms on Portable Amps, theres a thead with a guide to almost every single one worth mension)
-Headphones

Home Setup:
-Headphone amp (either with a DAC to plug into your computer, or from a cd player or somthing)
-Headphones
-Maibie a power conditioner to clean up the power
-Hard drive or room full of CD's/lossless music

Good Luck!!

 

[Mintz]

Thanks for the explanation! That analogy made a lot of sense. I don't understand why the sites I was at before when researching headphone amps didn't just explain it like that instead using those confusing formulas. Anyways, all of my music is ripped at 320 kbps and I plan on ordering a pair of Sennheiser HD 25-1 II which will be a good replacement for my crappy ipod earbuds. If I am not completely satisfied when they arrive I will probably come back here to get some advice on a good headphone amp. Even though I don't consider myself an audiophile I think it is great that a forum like this exists so someone like myself, who doesn't know what they are doing, can come to with questions for people who know what they are talking about. Thanks again for all the help!

 

[qusp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SVghost /img/forum/go_quote.gif People, people. Were talking to an "outsider" here! He dosent know what a sound stage is, or all these fancy terms. Lets make this short and simple, ill use an analogy of sorts... An ipod+headphones is like a regular old tv or a youtube video. You basicly see the focus of whats showing, but dont get any sence of imersion or detail. A Ipod+LOD+Headphone Amp+Headphones is like watching an imax movie. Not only do you get the focus of whats showing, your completly emersed in whats on screen! You could count the hairs on a persons eyelash kinda detail. I exadurate some, but you get the idea. And of cource the quality of the music your putting on your ipod is going to be the final factor. If you can get all your music at a bitrate of 320kbs MP3 its almost imposible to hear the diffrence betweene it and a CD. From there, it all depends on how much you want to spend. My recomendation, get the headphones, and use them with your ipod for a while. Then put some high quality music 320kbs MP3's on your ipod and see how you like that. If you still would like more sound quality, come on back to this site and do some research on this stuff. Your gonna need: 4 Portable Setup: -Mp3 player (preferably with a line out) -LOD (if you have a ipod) -Headphone Amp (look in the forms on Portable Amps, theres a thead with a guide to almost every single one worth mension) -Headphones Home Setup: -Headphone amp (either with a DAC to plug into your computer, or from a cd player or somthing) -Headphones -Maibie a power conditioner to clean up the power -Hard drive or room full of CD's/lossless music Good Luck!!

I think you underestimate people; sure I used some technical terms, but I started out with a description in fairly simple language and then explained it further in a more technical way. IMO soundstage is a fairly descriptive term and even wiothout proir knowledge fairly easy to get the meaning of. analogies are all well and good, but tend to oversimplify/generalize things and put them in a way that can be misunderstood. I'm not saying this is the case with your response, but in general i'm not a big fan unless they are accompanied with a more in-depth explanation. sure I used some terms that may not be in his current language, but all are easy to research if need be; that was the point, to give a simple explanation and then provide more to go on if desired.

Also by the sounds of it, you have never heard a decent fullsize home amp->CD player and fullsize headphones. I find it easy to tell the difference between an ipod with portable amp and headphones and a high quality fullsize rig with a quality CD player; to me the difference is not at all subtle and I have what is widely considered to be one of the best amps and source available in portable audio. It does sound brilliant!!! and the margin between a full-on portable rig and a home rig of the same cost is not HUGE, but it is IMO easily discernable; However; the difference between lossless and 320kgb both on an ipod, is marginal at best though I agree

 

[Mintz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif However; the difference between lossless and 320kgb both on an ipod, is marginal at best though I agree

I have heard that there is supposed to be little to no difference between a CD and lossless, so based on what you are saying would there be little difference (in sound quality) to listening to a CD and an audio file at 320 kbps?

 

[qusp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintz /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have heard that there is supposed to be little to no difference between a CD and lossless, so based on what you are saying would there be little difference (in sound quality) to listening to a CD and an audio file at 320 kbps?

if they were being played through the same DAC yes; there would be little difference, not no difference. but they arent, the ipod dacs (some of them) are quite good for what they are, but not in the same realms as a mid-fi to hi-fi CD player

 

[nvkid909]

to the op: i use HD25-1 with my ipod most of the time (when i have to use public transport). was gonna pull the trigger on a portable amp but that was for my HD595, & then i'd still need to restrict listening through those 'cos the leakage (they're one of the open cans i spoke of) would annoy anyone nearby.

sometimes you just gotta be a little selfish though

 

[SVghost]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think you underestimate people; sure I used some technical terms, but I started out with a description in fairly simple language and then explained it further in a more technical way. IMO soundstage is a fairly descriptive term and even wiothout proir knowledge fairly easy to get the meaning of. analogies are all well and good, but tend to oversimplify/generalize things and put them in a way that can be misunderstood. I'm not saying this is the case with your response, but in general i'm not a big fan unless they are accompanied with a more in-depth explanation. sure I used some terms that may not be in his current language, but all are easy to research if need be; that was the point, to give a simple explanation and then provide more to go on if desired. Also by the sounds of it, you have never heard a decent fullsize home amp->CD player and fullsize headphones. I find it easy to tell the difference between an ipod with portable amp and headphones and a high quality fullsize rig with a quality CD player; to me the difference is not at all subtle and I have what is widely considered to be one of the best amps and source available in portable audio. It does sound brilliant!!! and the margin between a full-on portable rig and a home rig of the same cost is not HUGE, but it is IMO easily discernable; However; the difference between lossless and 320kgb both on an ipod, is marginal at best though I agree

My apologies, i didn't mean to discredit you or anyone else's posts. I was grumpy when i wrote it that way. I agree, analogy's can be dangerous. I just felt like he was looking for a ultra basic explanation because he was saying he was confused by other things he found online.

On the upside, i think now he can get a good idea of this stuff by piecing together our various responses.

I defiantly can hear the difference from a portable to a home setup. Look in my sig, the differences between the two setups i have (home and portable) is huge, and im not running completely insano stuff like some on this forum! I cant tell the difference between mp3 320 and lossless, but i havent really tried to hear a difference anyways (maybe ill give my ears a challenge).

 

[yayomizzan]

depends