[Sadman]

Hello,

For many years I've been using a pair of AKG K141 monitor, they're 35 years old, and I've always been happy with the sound quality I was getting from them.

I use them the same way I'll use the new pair of cans: listening to music/movies/occasional gaming with my desktop pc. This includes Spotify, Youtube, Prime Video and compressed audio most of the times.

I never had a problem with the 600 ohm impedance because I always had desktops with an integrated amplifier among the onboard audio (this one has a Realtek HD audio with TI NE5532 amp gives me plenty of volume) so I really don't know about external headphone amplifiers and DAC converters, on this matter I'm a total newbie.

I feel like I want to step up the game and I want a new pair of headphones, possibly with these requirements:

- open/semi-open cans
- flat sound without "strange" colors: I want to customize it with the EQ
- clean, sharp and wide soundstage: I want to distinguish the instruments
- the right amount of basses and punch: I like sharp and round basses when they're not predominant and boomy
- comfortable: leather pads are FORBIDDEN
- 3D sound: I want to feel the directionality

I listen to different musical genres, but mostly: acoustic rock, rock and mild electronic (as in: definitely NOT commercial/club music/etc..) also all the classic rock from the 60s/70s/80s.

Sorry if these requests are strange, it's difficult to translate into tex something like audio preferences.

Provided the fact I'd do the best to try the headphones before buying - if possible - I may have found a possible candidate in the AKG K712 but I'm also attracted to the K701/2.

My budget is (I'm in Europe - Italy): up to 220€ only for the headphones.

---

I want to ask you experienced users what do you think about the models I called above + your suggestions about other headphones if you think there are better cans for my needs.

DAC & Ampli: I don't know if I need them so I totally rely on your competence! The budget here would be 100€ max.

Thanks for the patience.

 

[serman005]

You will need some power for the K712 Pro and the K702 if you go that direction--just fyi. Both require a reasonable amount of power to properly drive. You might consider a Schiit Magni 3. It could work for you. Alternatively, if you want to go a different direction, you could put all your money into a headphone that does not require an external amp--a terrific one would be the HiFiMAN HE-400S. Excellent, balanced sound with a nice stage and good imaging. Worth reading about.

 

[Me x3]

As far as I could find AKG K141 (600 Ohm) is 98dB/mW

AKG K701/K702/K712 are lower impedance but need pretty much the same amount of voltage so they drain much more current from the amplifier.
In other words, you'll need similar voltage to drive one of the K7-series but the amplifier will have to provide 10 times more power (approx)

Both K702 and K712 (the ones I've owned) benefit from a clean, high quality DAC and headphone amplifier, in my experience.

Both are neutralish headphones with little colouration.
K702 sounds more expansive and has less bass presence. It's also more diffuse and a little bit more nasal sounding.
K712 is fuller and more focused overall, rataining similar character to its sound.

I've owned two K702 and a single K712 that I still own. I've enjoyed them very much.
In my view K702 is a little bit more coloured in the upper midrange and treble. While it can be said that K712 sounds a little bit too full with some recordings, it does have an improved tonal balance. K702 has more character to it (drier and more nasal).

Pads are stiffer on K702.

 

[Sadman]

Alternatively, if you want to go a different direction, you could put all your money into a headphone that does not require an external amp--a terrific one would be the HiFiMAN HE-400S. Excellent, balanced sound with a nice stage and good imaging. Worth reading about.

Thanks.

I can't find that specific model but there's the HE-400i version, for 300€ on Amazon and other shops.

About the AKGs, I can't decide which model to choose between the 712 (more bass) and 701 or 702 (these ones attracted me for the extended soundstage), also as you stated there's the amplifier thing which I read about basically everywhere.

Talking about costs, the 712 are sold for 211€, the 701 for 148€ and the 702 for less: 131€.

To import a Schiit Magni 3 I'd likely spend 110€.

I need to think.

Also thanks Me x3 for your contribute!

 

[Me x3]

Thanks.

I can't find that specific model but there's the HE-400i version, for 300€ on Amazon and other shops.

About the AKGs, I can't decide which model to choose between the 712 (more bass) and 701 or 702 (these ones attracted me for the extended soundstage), also as you stated there's the amplifier thing which I read about basically everywhere.

Talking about costs, the 712 are sold for 211€, the 701 for 148€ and the 702 for less: 131€.
To import a Schiit Magni 3 I'd likely spend 110€.
I need to think.

Also thanks Me x3 for your contribute!

HE400i is not the same as HE400S
HE400i has more extended bass and brighter treble.

With regards to the soundstage on K702 and K712, it's not that one will make things sound 10m away and the other won't.
K702 has a more ethereal/lighter kind of sound relative to the more focused (blacker background) and just a tad more bodied sound of K712.
Keep in mind this is comparative since both provide a relatively big soundstage, unlike the Sennheiser HD600 for instance.

 

[Sadman]

I see.

Just a last question: if I buy one of said AKG models alone, will I be able to understand the sound signature without using a dedicated amplifier?

I'm asking because strangely they're difficult to be found in physical shops here in my region, so there's a possibility I'd have to buy them straight from Amazon without testing them.

I forgot to add that, just in case, I can test them on a Denon DM39DAB instead of using my desktop with the integrated DAC and amp.

https://www.denon.co.uk/uk/product/compactsystems/minimicro/dm39dab

Ps. Between the 701 and 702 should I ideally pick the latter because it's better?

 

[Me x3]

I see.

Just a last question: if I buy one of said AKG models alone, will I be able to understand the sound signature without using a dedicated amplifier?

I'm asking because strangely they're difficult to be found in physical shops here in my region, so there's a possibility I'd have to buy them straight from Amazon without testing them.

I forgot to add that, just in case, I can test them on a Denon DM39DAB instead of using my desktop with the integrated DAC and amp.

https://www.denon.co.uk/uk/product/compactsystems/minimicro/dm39dab

Ps. Between the 701 and 702 should I ideally pick the latter because it's better?

Yes, they will work just fine without the amplifier. You'll get their sound right.
Adding a quality DAC and headphone amplifier might bring the last hint of refinement and clean power, which typically translates into an even blacker background, faster attack and decay, improved instrument separation and more focused imaging. Overall a more effortless presentation. For the sake of simplicity let's say you might get 75% of their total performance without a dedicated high quality DAC/Amp. They are good sounding and enjoyable at this point. These headphones scale, so there's room to upgrade the chain in the future.

Check the little FiiO E10K if you want a solid entry level USB DAC/Amp to improve your chain without breaking the bank. I think it's available in Italy.

K702 has detacheable cable, while it's fixed on K701.
It's hard to tell if they should sound any different at this point in time. I've owned a recent K702 but not a recent K701 so I can't say if they sound the same or not.
In the past, K701 was typically slightly lighter in the bass relative to K702. But these days... it's hard to know without buying both.
Anyway, they should sound very similar so I see little reason to pay more for K701 with fixed cable.

On a side note, K712 comes with a carrying bag and additional coiled cable.

 

[Sadman]

Perfect, thanks again for the explanations.

I have to admit I like more the 701's looks and velour pads, talking about the whole range of models, if I was only shopping based on looks alone I'd buy them in a heartbeat.

The fiio is available for like 79€, just 20€ less than the schiit amplifier.

Now I only have to go shopping/testing.

 

[Sadman]

Hi there, I bought the cans!

I tried the Beyerdynamics DT 880 and 990 but even if they both were enjoyable I was somewhat "scared"/skeptical about the harsh highs I experienced, so after thinking for some day I ended up buying a pair of AKG K701 for 129€, which is a killer price since the DT 880 edition were offered at 200€.

The money I saved will be redirected on the DAC + Amp set.

So far I listened to these K701 for 10 hours and I'm almost satisfied because the sound is very clear even without touching the EQ settings, probably they need some burn in (they do?), but so far I was impressed by the presence of bass frequencies.

I find that's true that basses somewhat lack in volume in some circumstances but definitely I can hear the punch and presence, I have to say I'm ok with this, other than that the only downsides I experienced is that I expected a more spacious soundstage but I really don't know if this depends on the fact I hooked them up on my pc with the ALC1150, however the volume is definitely there and is on par with the K141 600 ohm (37-41/100 most of the time) and last I have to say it's true that these headphones enlarges every imperfection of the record.

For example Stairway to heaven on Spotify, from Mothership remastered:



I can clearly hear the distortion in the part just before the solo (5:34 onwards) and during the solo, so I thought something was off with my cans but it turned out they're fine.

I have to say that something I have also the impression to hear some minor but noticeable distortion, but at this point I can't judge if it's the cans or the spotify quality.

On some other songs I feel the sound to be somewhat "canned" even when adjusting the EQ manually, but as we know the perfect cans don't exist.

A last note about build quality: geez, I expected a LOT more.

I knew these were the Chinese models but it's all plastic (there's a little chip on the outside of my left driver), even the chromed parts which I thought were made from aluminium are made of plastic instead and so is the "metal looking" band on the sides with L / R symbols.

Nothing can beat the feel of the cold metal when touching your gear...I guess I've been spoiled by my Austrian K141 and that gorgeous golden metal.

For sure the DT 880 were far better on this matter of "perception of quality", but having said that I know the plastic/abs on these K701 is sturdy so let's hope I'll be using these cans for another 35 years just like their "sisters" did.

---

So, this brings us to the last part: DAC + Amp.

Doing my own research and reading your answers led me to consider the FiiO e10k as an entry level all in one device or I found the combination of Schiit Magni 3 + Modi 2 to be interesting even if we're talking of 250€ for both.

What do you think? Should I go on the Schiit combination (The USB only Modi 2) and keep them "forever" as I upgrade my gear in the future or should I pick the FiiO since as an inexpert user this could (?) be better for me?

Thanks again

 

[Me x3]

I understand what you mean when it comes to the plastic construction.
First time I got a K702 my main hadphone was DT880 Pro, so I felt the same way.
But plastic is light and that's good, treat them with some care and they should last many years.

I've used to own a Schiit Bifrost 4490 + Asgard 2 setup and compared it multiple times with the FiiO E10K
Both setups sounded very well and provided more volume than I needed. For someone that's not extremely deep in audiophile waters, both setups should be perceived very similar and even hard to tell apart on volume matched, blind tests. Both sound clear, with well defined bass and proper treble extension and detail. Blacker background, faster decay, more clarity and resolving power than every computer sound chip I've tried.

If you're very critical, you might find that these setups don't sound 100% alike. Just as the Modi 2 Uber I've also had sounded different from the Bifrost. Very subtle differences here and there.
Treble attack, soundstage size, soundstage focus, etc. The more expensive is not always better in every aspect. Again, we are talking about very subtle stuff now.
At that time I've preferred the Bifrost/Asgard2 combo over the E10K by a small margin and yes, it's 10 times more expensive, but this is how these hobby works once you've reached certain performance.

I haven't tried the Modi2/Magni3 combo so I can't speak for it.
Keep in mind the discussion can be overstated around here, but sometimes zooming can be a good thing to describe very subtle things.
If you like your headphones and your music, then you'll enjoy them very much with E10K or Modi2/Magni3.

It's up to you whether to invest on the subtle difference between two properly engineered DAC/Amp setups or spend that money somewhere else.
Some people prefer the quest of maximizing one headphone's performance, others prefer to have various flavours of sound to match the moment or have different perspectives or simply avoid getting bored. You know... I've enjoyed very much having DT880 along with K702 in the past, comparing them and finding their strenghs was plenty of fun to me. I've also enjoyed the Schiit setups, but it's different. Spending on better DAC/Amps will bring you small doses of refinement, while spending on complemetary headphones will bring a whole different perspective into the music.

Features can be of importance as well, at the end of the day I've personally switched to portable setups. I've had the X5 3rd Gen first, now X7 Mark II too.
I've found that having the chance to move around or picking different places to enjoy my music (even within the house) is a big plus for me, since then I enjoy my music and headphones more frecuently.

At some point this is a pretty personal hobby and thus it's really hard to push you in a particular direction.

Happy Listening!
Me x3

 

[Sadman]

It's up to you whether to invest on the subtle difference between two properly engineered DAC/Amp setups or spend that money somewhere else.

Me x3

Thank you for the detailed answer!

If the FiiO E10K is perfectly fine with the K701 then I guess I'll go for that since I'm kind of a beginner in this subject, also it's surely cost friendly compared to the Schiit setup.

Cheers

 

[Sadman]

Uh I forgot to ask one little thing.

I figured out that since the E10K has to be plugged via usb to my pc, this will override the onboard audio of my motherboard preventing me to use any sort of "general" EQs (I use the Realtek panel with specific equalizers for every input).

For the moment, I figured that I want to raise the 8k and 16k frequencies (!!!) so the sound will definitely open to suit my tastes. Bass is ok and maybe I'd want to lower a little the medium frequencies. This, of course, if the sound won't change significantly after the burn in and the use of the DAC/Amp.

Is there any EQ software that works GLOBALLY in Windows (so I can adjust it for these apps that don't have an eq vst such as Spotify, Firefox, games, etc..) that is able to work with the usb dac?

>in b4 buy a DAC with toslink/spdif input

 

[Me x3]

Uh I forgot to ask one little thing.

I figured out that since the E10K has to be plugged via usb to my pc, this will override the onboard audio of my motherboard preventing me to use any sort of "general" EQs (I use the Realtek panel with specific equalizers for every input).

For the moment, I figured that I want to raise the 8k and 16k frequencies (!!!) so the sound will definitely open to suit my tastes. Bass is ok and maybe I'd want to lower a little the medium frequencies. This, of course, if the sound won't change significantly after the burn in and the use of the DAC/Amp.

Is there any EQ software that works GLOBALLY in Windows (so I can adjust it for these apps that don't have an eq vst such as Spotify, Firefox, games, etc..) that is able to work with the usb dac?

>in b4 buy a DAC with toslink/spdif input

I think you can use Equalizer APO for that.
Equalizer APO can work as a parametric EQ so it gives you much more freedom to tweak the sound precisely.

 

[Sadman]

Thanks again!

That's all I need to know.