[mr_baseball_08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sladeophile WOW! Bonds is the KING of his era? I thought to be a king you had to RULE over something and atain the top tier of your profession, IE win a CHAMPIONSHIP? Bonds is no king, just as Malone will never be considered to be the best power forward to play the game because he never overcame Jordan. Any pitcher who has A. a teeny strike zone B. to pitch to an armored terminator freak like BB C. to pitch to a home run factory like BB is going to become cool like Billy Madison. Advantage - Ruth

I think you need to lose the "if *insert famous player here*'s team didn't win a national title, they automatically aren't any good" mentality.

As other's have stated, a single hitter only gets 3 to 5 at bats per game out of 30 to 40 total team at bats. Even if this hitter hit a home run everytime that only gives the team 3 to 5 runs which probably wouldn't give you a .500 winning percentage this day in age unless you had phenomenal pitching.

Baseball (like football) is very much a team sport and one guy can't pull the whole team. If the team doesn't function together as one then they won't win any championships regardless of whether they have a Barry Bonds, A-Rod, David Ortiz, or whoever else.

If you want to see how a true team is supposed to work together watch a Yankees game. Sure they have the highest payroll in baseball, but their star shortstop will lay down a sacrifice bunt 4 out of 4 at bats throughout a game if it means moving a runner over and scoring runs, and thats why they have so many championships.

 

[Sladeophile]

Quote:

Originally Posted by incognitoedleon By your logic, are you saying Mark Madsen is a more dominant power forward than Karl Malone for being on a championship winning team?

Don't put idiotic words in my mouth, that is nowhere near what I said. Madsen is not the great player of his team, the one that everyone looks to for leadership, he's not the team leader. Malone was. Bonds is. You must be a big Giants fan. I was a huge Jazz fan and loved Malone, but I will be the first to admit that he doesn't deserve to be on the same level as Jordan or Bird or Magic. That's just a given in sports, any sport.

 

[Sladeophile]

I NEVER said BB wasn't a good player, he obviously is. Unfortunately he has foregone the talent he was given, and has made himself slave to the HR. I just wish he would get out of baseball, or be kicked out. Bonds is worthless scum as a human, just like TO is a good football player, but is scum. He is in a role model position, yet he lies, treats his fans like crap (the ones who write his paycheck), and he is very hostile. It takes a great man to admit to his mistakes and take the responsibility for them rather than someone do that for him.

 

[incognitoedleon]

Yes I'm a Giants fan, but I'm not really a fan of Bonds personally. Of course, bringing up Madsen and Malone was an extreme example. I'm trying to show the flaw in your logic. I'm just saying that championships are not an indicator of a great player. Even if a team wins a championship with a great player, it doesn't mean that the great player contributed significant leadership to the team. A team leader doesn't necessarily have to be the best player. Jason Varitek was team captain for the Red Sox, but he obviously has not been their best hitter.

More so than football, basketball and hockey, baseball is much more contained. On offense, a batter is playing against the other team much more so than playing with the rest of his team.

 

[Sladeophile]

That's fine that you feel that way. Personally, that is just ONE of the many reasons that seperates BB from the truly elite of baseball history. For me, I've made my point, which I feel is completely valid. I am done with this thread. I'm simply saddened that Bonds will be mentioned with Ruth and Aaron in the same breath. I won't dispute that he is a very good player, certainly worthy of HoF residence. Oh wait, screw that, he uses steriods...

It's sad that he has so tainted his AWESOME career for the desires of HR dominance. Sad...

 

[Homeless]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nibiyabi Barry Bonds is a man who has never hit his wife, assaulted someone, or squandered his money on drugs, booze, and women, which can't be said about roughly 70% of the league.

I guess it has to be said...technically he 'may have' not spent his money on drugs, just used them...and do you really think 70% of the league are druggies, alcoholics, or spouse abusers?

 

[mr_baseball_08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Homeless I guess it has to be said...technically he 'may have' not spent his money on drugs, just used them...and do you really think 70% of the league are druggies, alcoholics, or spouse abusers?

Personally, in the realm of baseball, I don't think those numbers are accurate at all. But I have no facts to back it up. I don't think baseball has had any Kobe Bryant's recently. None that stick out in my mind, anyway.

 

[Homeless]

I don't have the stats to back up any claims either, but I doubt very much that it's anywhere near even 20% (speaking of drugs other than steroids, and the wife beating, or alcoholism)

 

[mr_baseball_08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Homeless I don't have the stats to back up any claims either, but I doubt very much that it's anywhere near even 20% (speaking of drugs other than steroids, and the wife beating, or alcoholism)

Given the majority of big time players play in the neighborhood of 160 games a year not counting preseason and post season, most baseball players don't have time for things of this nature.

 

[yellafella321]

Sladeophile: i think this thread is your ticket into Jahndom!

(in the sense that it is a popular thread that you can post in repeatedly and rack up th epost count)

 

[luckybaer]

A recent book that is out says that it was envy and jealously that drove Bonds to steroids. He saw guys like McGwire and Sosa, which were players that he felt he was better than, getting adulation for hitting homers and thought he wasn't getting enough attention.

In baseball, when you go for arbitration, you get judged by how you stack up against your peers, so I can sort of understand his concerns.

However, I think that at the time, if you had asked any major league GM "Which player would you rather have on your team if you were starting from scratch: Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, or Sammy Sosa?" most GMs would have picked Bonds.

Heck, in my Strat-O-Matic and Diamond Mind Baseball leagues, I'd pick Bonds ahead of Sosa or McGwire even if McGwire had 70 HR and Bonds "only" 40. Bonds just was a more complete player who was rated highly for defense, had speed, and could steal a base and get on base.

Too bad his paranoia and insecurity might have played a role in the bad decisions he made.

 

[Sladeophile]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellafella321 Sladeophile: i think this thread is your ticket into Jahndom! (in the sense that it is a popular thread that you can post in repeatedly and rack up th epost count)

Yeah, my fingers hurt. I have no Jahnish aspirations, he is king of head-fi. I'm just absurdly passionate about baseball and the lack of integrity exhibited by the league and it's most prominent figure of the last 5 years.

I honestly think that most ballplayers avoid roids because they know it will do more damage to them than good. Sure it will beef you up, but the medical consequences of such drugs in the long run are overwhelming. Not to mention the mood swings. Most ballplayers care about their rep and don't want some drug affecting their mind. Anyway, I thought I was done with this thread??

 

[Sladeophile]

Quote:

Originally Posted by luckybaer Heck, in my Strat-O-Matic and Diamond Mind Baseball leagues, I'd pick Bonds ahead of Sosa or McGwire even if McGwire had 70 HR and Bonds "only" 40. Bonds just was a more complete player who was rated highly for defense, had speed, and could steal a base and get on base.

Much like Andrei Kirilenko in the NBA.

 

[Voltron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sladeophile Yeah, my fingers hurt. I have no Jahnish aspirations, he is king of head-fi. I'm just absurdly passionate about baseball and the lack of integrity exhibited by the league and it's most prominent figure of the last 5 years.

You know, I heard a rumor--no lots of rumors--that Jahn uses steroids to boost his post count. He must be a scumbag and a cheat and a loser like Barry Bonds.... [Sorry, James, I just couldn't resist.

]

I'm sure you will claim I am putting words in your mouth or maybe you will just call me stupid or idiotic like you have done repeatedly in this thread that you started to invoke the exact responses you mocked, but I was just at the ballpark tonight and watched Juan Pierre rob Barry of 714. It was thrilling, even if disappointing, and I will be back there tomorrow night (with a Cubs fan who works for TTVJ) to see him get one over the fence.

I too am passionate about baseball and my Giants and even about Barry Bonds. I won't like it if he is ever proven to have taken roids and I don't like the possibility that he did, but trying to blame the downfall of baseball and all the ills of the sport on him is ludicrous. And like Tuberoller said above, prove something before you hang the man. Your little picture display has been done before and conveniently ignores plenty of factors like aging, changes in physical conditioning, changes in the game, changes in his goals, etc. I'm not naive, but I happen to believe in the concept of innocent before proven guilty.

The ill-informed assumptions you made about his popularity with the fans are what made me break down and post a response. Every time Barry came up to bat tonight the entire stadium stood up and most times people chanted "BARRY BARRY BARRY" to support him. After Pierre snagged that ball (which was over the fence and almost popped out of his glove) the fans booed Pierre both times he came to the plate. Tomorrow I imagine it will be even more pro-Barry.

The best example of how you are wrong about his current status came the other night in Phillie. Before he hit 713, the Phillie fans, as expected, were booing and taunting him. When he hit the massive, no-steroid beauty of a home run that was No. 713, the Phillie fans stood up and cheered like everybody else. Check the footage if you don't believe me.

Like Utep10 said, I am sick and tired of all this steroid BS and I want it behind us and baseball. I also agree with him that baseball will prevail and persist.

In the meantime . . . Go Barry! Hit 714 and 715 tomorrow so I can see more history.

 

[Sladeophile]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voltron You know, I heard a rumor--no lots of rumors--that Jahn uses steroids to boost his post count. He must be a scumbag and a cheat and a loser like Barry Bonds.... [Sorry, James, I just couldn't resist. ] I'm sure you will claim I am putting words in your mouth or maybe you will just call me stupid or idiotic like you have done repeatedly in this thread that you started to invoke the exact responses you mocked, but I was just at the ballpark tonight and watched Juan Pierre rob Barry of 714. It was thrilling, even if disappointing, and I will be back there tomorrow night (with a Cubs fan who works for TTVJ) to see him get one over the fence. I too am passionate about baseball and my Giants and even about Barry Bonds. I won't like it if he is ever proven to have taken roids and I don't like the possibility that he did, but trying to blame the downfall of baseball and all the ills of the sport on him is ludicrous. And like Tuberoller said above, prove something before you hang the man. Your little picture display has been done before and conveniently ignores plenty of factors like aging, changes in physical conditioning, changes in the game, changes in his goals, etc. I'm not naive, but I happen to believe in the concept of innocent before proven guilty. The ill-informed assumptions you made about his popularity with the fans are what made me break down and post a response. Every time Barry came up to bat tonight the entire stadium stood up and most times people chanted "BARRY BARRY BARRY" to support him. After Pierre snagged that ball (which was over the fence and almost popped out of his glove) the fans booed Pierre both times he came to the plate. Tomorrow I imagine it will be even more pro-Barry. The best example of how you are wrong about his current status came the other night in Phillie. Before he hit 713, the Phillie fans, as expected, were booing and taunting him. When he hit the massive, no-steroid beauty of a home run that was No. 713, the Phillie fans stood up and cheered like everybody else. Check the footage if you don't believe me. Like Utep10 said, I am sick and tired of all this steroid BS and I want it behind us and baseball. I also agree with him that baseball will prevail and persist. In the meantime . . . Go Barry! Hit 714 and 715 tomorrow so I can see more history.

Is this a baseball question or a steroid question?

Honestly, it hardly surprises me that you and our other bay area friend are the only ones who like Bonds. Anywhere else and he is hated. You assume the opposite of me, that he has never taken roids. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion. I won't attack you personally or claim that you posted this thread just to mock me, I'm not that childish.

It is exciting anytime someone hits a HR. That's what he does, that's what people go to see him do, and they cheer when he does it. That means nothing of what people think about him. I would cheer if I saw TO catch a touchdown pass even though I despise the guy.

Why do you think they sat him in the last away game? To make it look so good when he does pass Ruth, so everyone looks peachy and happy about it. That's what sports is all about. I do know that I wouldn't cheer if I saw BB hit a home run, I would boo. He cheats, I boo cheaters.

You sure did prove a good point with your innocent until proven guilty statement, roused my heart. I think despite that, I will side with %95 of the people and believe that he has taken steroids. Wait, on second thought, I'll use a great example from Bonds and his friends and plead the 5th on that.

Anyway, go ahead and defend your jackass role model. Cheer him when he passes Ruth, I'll be booing. And when it is proven that he took steroids, just keep on cheering. I know that baseball will prevail despite all this, it is the greatest sport ever played.

In the meantime, go start a BB fanboy thread.