[RockinOut]

My opinion to all Head-Fi members with experience with upgraded DACs or amps with laptops:

Personally, I think most laptop onboard sound is simply a waste of time.

Why even bother. It's crap. Most decent quality iPods and mp3 players sound better than onboard notebook sound.

Most of us are here at Head-Fi because we want good SQ at the best price and for some in a reasonably transportable, flexible form-factor.

We are doing a great disservice to all newbie Head-Fi members if we don't tell them how bad it is.

Yes, for me amping alone, helps a little. Same with attenuators.

No one in their right mind would recommend someone to keep inferior factory soundcards or integrated soundcards for use in a decent Head-Fi rig.

I'm just posting this because there seems to be many newbie posts on this subject.

No amp or headphone is going to make a truly bad source sound better. It's a waste of money, and these newbies will end up upgrading their source because the upgraded amps or phones will truly reveal the poor quality of the source.

I'm not stating this as a fact or as a subject of debate. I'm just sharing my experience, and I know, it cost me mucho $$$. This happened to me, and I'm seeing this happen to many newer Head-Fiers.

I'm merely trying to help out other members seeking the most bang for their buck.

There is no magic pill that fixes laptop sound and that has no cables (beyond PCMCIA), weighs nothing, costs mere dollars. The DAC (and obviously a corresponding amp) should be the main focus of laptop sound with size and cost the next determining factors (It seems ridiculous to put in sound quality as a factor, duh, that's why we're here).

A quality laptop rig is easy, but the magic is in the DAC, and unfortunately this seems to be what most newbies are most confused about or know nothing about. That's why those of us who have nice laptop rigs should more properly direct them in building a quality rig at a decent price with a possible upgrade path.

And anyone with a Mac notebook optical out hopefully must realize how nice it is to have it, compared to just USB or PCMCIA.

I wish the following thread was a sticky so newbies would have it so much easier:
http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showt...ighlight=lapfi

Thanks again to Ypoknons, for taking the time to compile such a wonderful listing and providing much needed information in one place for all of us. The Sloth, Andrew_WOT, Devwild, and Elephas have also contributed so much to helping all of us better get the most out of laptop and computer as source sound. Many other posters too have helped me and others so much (just can't think of usernames) too.

(I won't even get started with ASIO, bitrates, software, or bit-perfect. That's another matter entirely.)

 

[RockinOut]

Copied from a reply to a poster who was comparing a cheap portable CD player vs. USB DAC's and the fact that many posters feel USB is a poor source and DAC:

USB has some problems but it works great given it's limitations and the fact that almost all laptops have no optical outs yet almost all have USB nowadays.

I really like USB, it's flexible, and sounds great.

I think it's a shame that so many people are disregarding USB DACs without even trying it. Yeah optical is nice, but USB has it's place.

I feel it's getting to much of a bad wrap around here especially for newbies.

There loss I guess.

Total Bithead, Aria, MicroDAC. They all have their place with USB and sound great.

Silverstone EB01 is $100. From what I've read doesn't "need" amp as volume is adjusted from software. Not bit-perfect, but still better than factory sound.

It's one thing to make comparisons between USB and optical or coax especially among those of us who have heard and compared them on laptop/computer rigs.

It's another thing to completely disregard USB as an affordable, flexible option to greatly improved sound on 90% of laptops and desktops with factory soundcards.

USB has it's place: affordable, accessible, flexible, and simple to use.

 

[rickys]

I'm one of those newbies looking for using my headphones with my laptop. I'm not yet convinced why would a headphone amp be needed with any soundcard, esp. one like Indigo DJ or Waveterminal U24. My Senn 555s are rated at 50 ohms, and it's quite loud from the notebook audio out even with the wave / master volume turned down at 40%. However, almost everyone here recommends an amp regardless.

The other issue is that it's hard to make a choice without auditioning the equipment yourself. Some of us live in the badlands of the world and we must get everything shipped to our doorstep. No stores to check out a product, no 30 day return policy.

Lastly, opinions vary a lot. The Indigo DJ, as an example, is stated as somewhat below regular notebook audio out quality by one user and 1000x better by another. The Transit has similiar drastically varying opinions. Very hard to make a choice and everything at the end boils down to using the the Benchmark DAC1 with the Transit as an optical transport. And since this is way beyond most people's budget this means we're back to square one.

I'm still looking around.

Ricky.

 

[ComfyCan]

Unless your prepared to go the whole separate components route (e.g., micorstack or comparable), I think the best laptop solutions in terms of quality, portability, and bang for your buck are the Indigo DJ and the TotalBithead. They are both simple, and both good.

I prefer the Bithead because it is a bit more versatile (has a line it, albeit analogue), gain switch, crossfeed, and doubles as a portable amp for an I-pod or other DAP.

 

[akg_man701]

Keep in mind too that a lot of people use a headphone amp for sound quality and not necessarily increased volume, if at all. My iPod was plenty to drive my IEMs but I use an amp to improve the sound anyway.

 

[Sparky191]

Didn't realise there were a lot of newbies asking about using amps with poor on onboard sound solutions. I'm wonder do they realise they don't have to use your onboard sound. However there are PC laptops and desktops with reasonable onboard sound and some even have optical out. So not all onboard solutions are bad. Maybe not great, but not terrible either.

My old Sony laptop HP896 has AC '97 and is abysmal. So I use a cheap Creative MP3+ USB with it simply for stereo sound and its optical I/O, (the latter I used to use with my MiniDisc). The MP3+ while only 16bit and not all that great in itself, is USB powered, very cheap, and is at least listenable. However on my regular work Desktops a Dell 4600 and a Dell PWS 650, the onboard sound is listenable without a sound card. Probably on a par with the MP3+. I'm not going to leave a $100 amp or external sound card on these, because it will probably disappear from the desk or where I'm working eventually. However it would be pointless anyway because like you say the source isn't good enough to get the best out of an amp.

 

[Dept_of_Alchemy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickys My Senn 555s are rated at 50 ohms, and it's quite loud from the notebook audio out even with the wave / master volume turned down at 40%. However, almost everyone here recommends an amp regardless.

That's because an amp doesn't just increase volume, it also improves the sound quality by increasing the 'grip' that the source has over the transducer. This has to do with the damping factor. For instance, if you were to drive your 50ohm headphone with the HeadRoom Desktop (output impedance < 1ohm), the damping factor would be >50But if you were to drive your headphone with an iPod (5ohm output impedance), the damping factor would only be 10. While an amp would always introduce a little harmonic distortion and noice, the improvement in sound quality is nevertheless valid.

Try an amp, see if you like it! =)

 

[tschanrm]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dept_of_Alchemy That's because an amp doesn't just increase volume, it also improves the sound quality by increasing the 'grip' that the source has over the transducer. This has to do with the damping factor. For instance, if you were to drive your 50ohm headphone with the HeadRoom Desktop (output impedance < 1ohm), the damping factor would be >50But if you were to drive your headphone with an iPod (5ohm output impedance), the damping factor would only be 10. While an amp would always introduce a little harmonic distortion and noice, the improvement in sound quality is nevertheless valid. Try an amp, see if you like it! =)

The perceived sound quality of an amp is more than just damping factor. Generally, most built-in laptop soundcards have trouble with lower impedance headphones (16-32). An external amp provides an optimized signal path, something built-in sound cards cannot do. External amps can also accomodate the space needed for quality components.

But if there's one bit of info newcommers should know, it's that the windows volume control (and foobar's volume control) should not be used. Using windows volume or foobar volume lower the playback bit depth, thus reducing sound quality. Hope this helps.

 

[Sisyphos]

I will probably never stop telling that the Echo Indigo is one of the best bang for the buck piece of equipment I've ever bought.
IMO it sounds better than the Corda Aria through the USB-Input (which is, of course, due to the better DAC inside the Indigo) and it is just such a neat device.

 

[bangraman]

You could do a lot worse than getting a Macbook/MBPro and resisting the temptation to put Windows on it. You can DAC it out of the box, and you can use any audio playback software in the knowledge that the OS is unlikely to be mucking around with the music.

 

[theexec]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tschanrm But if there's one bit of info newcommers should know, it's that the windows volume control (and foobar's volume control) should not be used. Using windows volume or foobar volume lower the playback bit depth, thus reducing sound quality. Hope this helps.

Although I think there is something dodgy about window's volume control, a properly implemented digital volume control(not sure about foobar) would only cause negligible deterioration to the sound quality. Especially if you're operating in 24 bit+, losing 2 bit of information, say going from 2^24 discrete levels down to 2^22 really does nothing to sound quality at all..

 

[educator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tschanrm But if there's one bit of info newcommers should know, it's that the windows volume control (and foobar's volume control) should not be used. Using windows volume or foobar volume lower the playback bit depth, thus reducing sound quality. Hope this helps.

How do you avoid using the windows volume?

 

[Lettu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by educator How do you avoid using the windows volume?

It Means using it at 100%

 

[granodemostasa]

great sound for under 1K.... look at my sig. and the software is ASIO-foobar.