[revenge]

Hello Mr Fang
I haven't had the pleasure of meeting you personally but you seem to me, from what I have seen on this forum, a manufacturer with excellent  ideas, willing to take chances, actively involved in the life of this small but mad community.
 
Hifiman is, in my opinion, a great idea. But in practice, I'm sad to say. it failed at several levels. The limited memory, battery life, chunky adaptor, unfamiliar firmware, less then stellar headphone amplifier, and last but not least, huge price, have pushed a lot of people away from your otherwise revolutionary device. Neither have you been able to address most of the issues, nor have other manufacturers joined your efforts to create a truly unique portable player. Therefore most owners gave up using it as an everyday portable player because of its size. They gave up taking it on holiday because of the big and heavy power supply. They gave up using the inbuilt headphone amplifier and attached to an already big device another one, be it a Pico Slim, a Predator or anything else. Even so, most owners have still felt like the Hifiman was something special, unique and in a class of its own.
 
But now things are about to change. New products emerge every day, making it more and more difficult to make a choice. The latest development from JH Audio, the portable DAC/amplifier /crossover for their high end IEMs, will probably change the rules of the game for good for all the JH13 Pro / JH16 Pro owners out there (which also happen to be most of your clients). The new toy, called JH 3A, requires a digital coaxial signal, otherwise the signal would suffer a double conversion which would obviously alter the sound. This brings me to one of my good old ideas, which I've had long before JH 3A or your Hifiman. 
 
I don't think an all in one box is a good idea unless you can fit inside the best components money can buy because, as you well know, one of the symptoms of the Headfi disease is the pursuit of audio perfection. If the Predator is the best portable amplfier for their IEM's, the owners will want a Predator fit inside and if it can't be done, they will carry it in a bag, strap it to your player or even to their manhood as long as there are any proven sonic benefits.  Sadly it looks like a Ray Samuels or a Justin are not interested in getting involved in your projects for reasons which are above the aims of this post. So why not building the exact opposite then, letting everyone use exactly what they want to use?! 
 
So here's my idea for the best portable player in the market: something the size of a Clip, with flash memory (preferably a SSD for good capacity, avoiding the hassle of carrying several SD cards with you all the time), with a battery life at least comparable to a Cowon D2, Rockbox and, most important, no DAC / amplfier fit inside. Digital output only, be it optical, coaxial and/or USB (or even better, all three). The H140 of the 21st century. The perfect companion for the overgrowing market of portable DAC/amplifier combos, including JH 3A. If you can make this happen for a reasonable price, you might have a winner!
 
   

 

[kayser]

The DAC in HiFiMan HM-801 is the best in the market, so I guess it will be better to release a no-amp unit.

 

[revenge]

Maybe, but for the JH13 /JH 16 Pro owner the JH 3A will be a must. And to get the best out of a JH 3A, it takes a digital signal.
How many Hifiman users have a JH IEM? Probably most, if not all of them. And what's the point of paying for a DAC you are not going to use? 
On the other hand how many JH IEM owners have a Hifiman? Probably a small fraction. A DAC-less/amp-less Hifiman, feeding a digital coaxial signal to their box of wonders would be a must and there would be no competition for such a device in the market. And it wouldn't be just the IEM users. How about the D10 owners (and as far as I know there's also an Ibasso balanced design to be released soon)?!. 

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

 
So here's my idea for the best portable player in the market: something the size of a Clip, with flash memory (preferably a SSD for good capacity, avoiding the hassle of carrying several SD cards with you all the time), with a battery life at least comparable to a Cowon D2, Rockbox and, most important, no DAC / amplfier fit inside. Digital output only, be it optical, coaxial and/or USB (or even better, all three). The H140 of the 21st century. The perfect companion for the overgrowing market of portable DAC/amplifier combos, including JH 3A. If you can make this happen for a reasonable price, you might have a winner!
 
   

 
"Something the size of a Clip" with "no DAC / amplifier fit inside".     So a portable player that is unusable as a music player by itself.  Yeah, that will sell much more than the HM-801 or HM-602. 

 
-Ed
 

 

[revenge]

Ed, I'm talking about a simple interface, a portable Squeezebox if you like. You could use it with any DAC/amp, from portable to high end desktop rigs. H140 is used this way, that's why the Wadia iTransport is for and there are several projects aiming at extracting a digital signal from Ipods in a portable setting. Why not skip the third box and offer just a digital output?  Without the DAC/amplifier sections, the thing could be tiny and have a long battery life while costs would hopefully be reasonable.

 

[nlhk]

There is something like this in the market:
http://cgi.ebay.com.hk/WAVE-PlAYER-WITH-I2s-SPDIF-TO-DAC-NO-NEED-USB-PC-LINK-/320432131519
However it is not portable as it has no battery included.
 
But I think:
- For portable listening, you need to take a player, a DAC and an amplifier. Three items are too buggy.  Although there are some DAC+Amp units but the choices are few.
- Since it is not technically hard to build, it is not easy to build one which can beat all others unless the unit has very good user interface (on which Hifiman does not have an advantage at the moment).
 
For a slimmer portable version with longer battery life, instead of just a player with digital output, I prefer an unit with player + DAC (the PCM1704UK, which Hifiman is using, is definitely an advantage over others). Since there are many choices of portable amp in the market, users can easily find an amp to match their needs.
 
 
On the other hand, for home use I would like to have a desktop player with good digital output and can access audio files through USB, LAN or WiFi. Since for home use, the unit for transport is seperated from the DAC unit anyway and there are a lot of choices in desktop DAC in the market.
 
 
The above is just my preference and I am not sure whether other users' views are the same or not.

 

[revenge]

That thing is even bigger than a Hifiman and has no battery, therefore it's not portable.

 

[testrichard]

 
[size=17pt] I wont call Replaceable memory and battery "limited"[/size]
[size=10pt]  [/size]
[size=10pt]  [/size]
[size=11pt] Neither have you been able to address most of the issues  [/size]
[size=11pt] I thought 602 is the effort and working progress towards that? Change is good even though compromise still there ? But did you see that the competition is within itself ? Not to others ? Tells you some thing don’t you think? After 1 year since the 1st news of existence ?[/size]
[size=11pt]  [/size]
[size=11pt] nor have other manufacturers joined your efforts to create a truly unique portable player[/size]
[size=11pt] exactly !! You already know the answer to your question don’t you ? Which is why 801 exist and others don’t I m sure they all heard you and working on some thing? Lets just see ~ oh Iphone 4 and ipad just came out but strange the magical apple still forgot to address the issue ? Why steve ?[/size]
[size=11pt]  [/size]
[size=11pt] Therefore most owners gave up using it as an everyday portable player because of its size[/size]
[size=11pt] You know you are quoting without referencing right ? In Uni you will get zero/F for your paper ~while if you work for new york times you will get fired [/size]
[size=11pt]  [/size]
[size=11pt] the portable DAC/amplifier /crossover for their high end IEMs, will probably change the rules of the game for good The new toy, called JH3A[/size]
[size=11pt] Geeze~ I thought the combo/the rubble band wrap has always been there, nothing new here!! What the twist about JH3A is the concept (which isnt exactly new and I will point out later) and  theoretically much better sound ( I want one ~ yeah shoot me,  not doubt about it , but my 801 will still be with me as JH3A doesn’t play music~ it is not a DAP ! Also I have doubt about the portability of it as I still don’t know if it using power plug or battery ? )[/size]
[size=11pt]  [/size]
[size=11pt] JH 3A, requires a digital coaxial signal, otherwise the signal would suffer a double conversion which would obviously alter the sound. This brings me to one of my good old ideas, which I've had long before JH 3A or your Hifiman[/size]
[size=11pt] Oh my friend , claim any thing but don’t claim you own the idea long before every one ? Fang already mentioned what he thought the audio world might develop into digital and phase out the analog stuff in his recent interview with one of China's audio magazine~ so yeah, he knew whats going around for sure and you can bet on that.  http://www.erji.net/read.php?tid=882195[/size]
[size=11pt]  [/size]
[size=11pt] Also this guy from taiwan (who owns R10 and Qualia 010 ) had researched and test the possibility of  after market balanced headphone directly feed to balanced DAP (if I read it right) he even did it with his own Q010 and he loves the result hence he sold most of his AMP now and keeping only the DAP and headphones . http://www.andaudio.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=82424[/size]
[size=11pt]  [/size]
[size=11pt] Therefore I said JH3A idea is not unique, similar idea can be found in many different ways but all about cutting through the middle man and make it as simple and easy as possible ( I really hope I m not saying anything wrong here and embarrassing my self )[/size]
[size=11pt]  [/size]
[size=11pt] I don't think an all in one box is a good idea unless you can fit inside the best components money can buy because, as you well know, one of the symptoms of the Headfi disease is the pursuit of audio perfection. If the Predator is the best portable amplfier for their IEM's, the owners will want a Predator fit inside and if it can't be done, they will carry it in a bag, strap it to your player or even to their manhood as long as there are any proven sonic benefits.  Sadly it looks like a Ray Samuels or a Justin are not interested in getting involved in your projects for reasons which are above the aims of this post. So why not building the exact opposite then, letting everyone use exactly what they want to use?![/size]
[size=11pt] 1st, define best components money can buy[/size]
[size=11pt] 2nd you are seriously contradict what you said, so what really do you want from a Best mp3 player ? Combo or not combo ? Size or no size (as in big or small )[/size]
[size=11pt]  [/size]
[size=11pt] Could I may be ask a little question ? So we already know that hifiman 801 is not your ideal mp3 player….. And you already drafted your ideal ~ perfect mp3 player in your post……. So tell me what is it ? What mp3 player currently on the market that’s next to 801 while better than 801 that come close to your demand ? I knew already this would be interesting game if you are about to name one coz I have no doubt any answer you given will surely have all other short fall and compromise [/size]
[size=11pt]  [/size]
[size=11pt] So here's my idea for the best portable player in the market: something the size of a Clip, with flash memory (preferably a SSD for good capacity, avoiding the hassle of carrying several SD cards with you all the time), with a battery life at least comparable to a Cowon D2, Rockbox and, most important, no DAC / amplfier fit inside. Digital output only, be it optical, coaxial and/or USB (or even better, all three). The H140 of the 21st century. The perfect companion for the overgrowing market of portable DAC/amplifier combos, including JH 3A. If you can make this happen for a reasonable price, you might have a winner![/size]
[size=11pt] I don’t suppose you realize that what you said here is there all alone ~~ all the portable mp3 player fits your bill just fine ~ all the things you ask for matches all ~~ even since the very 1st kind of mp3 player ! But the problem is …… they just don’t sound good enough to full fill your wish ( all portable mp3 player are smaller, use some kind of flash memory or macro drive etc etc you get the picture )[/size]
[size=11pt]  [/size]
[size=11pt]  [/size]
[size=11pt] Finally , I have defended 801 so many times that I seriously  looking more and more like a die hard fan now  !! (well may be I am? I suppose I should just give in , should I ? ) I mean come on ~ cant you guys do any better ? I will shut up naturally if I cant find any counter argument ? But I just can so doesn’t that tell some thing to you ?[/size]

 

[revenge]

Testrichard, none of your ranting makes much sense and in this respect you are no different from Sonic and other ardent supporters of the Hifiman.
 
I am not trying to criticize anything, I am trying to give my feedback and help Mr Fang develop a better player. I haven't seen a single Hifiman owner to use their high end IEMs straight from its headphone out and that is a fact. So then, in their case, why pay for a headphone amplifier, carry the extra-size and weight and kill the battery faster with a component they're not going to use? 
 
The ideal portable rig would be, obviously, a one box solution. But since it looks like this is not going to happen (at least nothing that can please every category of user) anytime soon, two boxes as small as possible would make sense. And because outputing a digital signal from the iWorld is now possible, and because the Ipod is still the best and the most widely used portable interface known to man (some will disagree but, in all honesty, and although I hate iTunes myself, I am relieved everytime I use an Ipod interface compared to anything else in the market), I have no doubt that in the near future there will be plenty of portable dac/amps to use that digital output. The problem is: that would most likely be a three component combo: player, converter, DAC/amp. How about using instead a player the size of the Clip or of the H140 remote, connected digitally to JH 3A or whatever combo (maybe a future Protector with a DAC, or the next balanced DAC/amp combo from Ibasso), holding a charge for weeks, having a generous flash memory and a familiar user interface? Wouldn't that be much more edible than a Hifiman/JH 3A combo? Wouldn't that give you the freedom to use that player in any setup?
 
The JH 3A project is quite advanced so if you check the dedicated thread, you will find all the informations you need. I am not going to do it here because this is not the point of this thread.
 
I might be wrong, of course. Mr Fang might not be interested in my idea which could very well be stupid. But praising a product will not get anyone nearer to the future either. The Hifiman has its strenghts but it also has its weaknesses. To deny either is simply, no offence, stupid.
 
So I am inviting everyone to share their opinions in this thread. What do you expect from the future Hifiman?! Are you going to use the JH 3A, are you going to stick with your Protector or Pico Slim? Are you ever going to use the inbuilt headphone amplfier? Would you find a digital output useful? And so on. I'm sure Mr Fang will be interested in everyone's opinions.
Just don't give me the same tune with how great the Hifiman is and how stupid we are, the rest of the world, for not using it. Think of ways to improve it, cut costs, reduce size, improve battery life and keep the praising in the dedicated thread. Since there's going to be a little brother, why not give a hand at shaping it to your needs?
 
Last but not least, I have about 25 years of school (including about 13 of "Uni" and post-"Uni" to qoute you) so I don't need to be preached like a first grade pupil, with a red marker. I know one or two things about music and, checking your profile I can tell you with certainty that I have invested much more than you have, time and money - wise, in audio. For me the cans are only a secondary hobby. Respect if you want to get any respect. Regards

 

[testrichard]

1st, world peace

 
and i understand you are just trying to point out things hifiman short fall, i think 602 really is the working progress as it took away the DAC part while replace with a chip which is brother of TDA1541. keeps the quality of sound part (awaiting market test and feedback) but trying to reduce price and the size, keeps swap-able memory as has been discuss before due to the flexibility and battery consumation
 
i m not trashing others, always trying to be fair(i m pretty sure i never said other's stupid), i love JH3A's idea and i understand you and many other's passion but it just not a MP3 player.
 
to the opposite actually, i know hifiman is great but i m sure the constant question to other owners is more about finding out how great it is and anxious about when and if there are any mp3 player coming out is going to be better ? so i really dont praise 801 that much like you think being ahead bears the burden of being chase and one day being replace..... if i bought a mp3 player not the best one actually takes much more weight off the shoulder as i can just focus on improving it while just tell other friends what my mp3 player good at and not good at and the trade of is etc.
 
what you looking for is every where seriously, if you just want simple and direct to your ears~ how about motorola S9, the similar souny gym walk man? the Okaly sun glass mp3 player? the wrist watch mp3 player( connect to pico or RSA?) hell i even seen mp3 player for swimming, problem is they just dont sound good, your hand phone is also a source of music and many other kinds of stuff. wouldnt it be great if motorola S9 sounds good ? or any tiny bluetooth handsfree ? i feel like you just overlooked it thats all, i m sure you heard alot of good stuff and may be thats why you overlooked it? that what you looking for is all around us but that just fail one way or another.
 
money~ i m not too sure but who cares as i start poor , but experience in audio and phones? i say you do~ more than me yes

 

[revenge]

That's much better, Testrichard. Now we can have a decent talk. Thank you for that.
Regarding the quoted players, I'm afraid you are missing the point. None of them has a digital output. And actually, apart from H1XX and a few old portable CD players, there is nothing in the market with a digital output. If the Hifiman would have it, it would make an even greater player, allowing me to connect it at home to my Benchmark like I used to do with my Ipod via Wadia iTransport. But unfortunately Mr Fang hasn't thought about it or hasn't considered it necessary (since it was designed to be the most advanced portable DAC available) when he designed it. Now, more than ever, since an essential companion for the JH13 Pro is about to be released, a digital output becomes a must. And it's not just the JH13 Pro crowd. One of the many things I like about the Ipod is versatility. You have a decent player in the train or in the plane, but at the same time an almost highend source when you get home, connecting it to a proper DAC through the iTransport or the newer Onkyo dock, capable to extract a digital, bit perfect signal and feed it to as good a DAC as you can afford. Have you ever listened to an Ipod through a Benchmark or a Lavry? I have and believe me, until you can judge for yourself, that is almost as good a source as a fairly expensive CD player. 
So, since I am (or not) going to spend a lot of money for the most expensive portable player in the market, I am expecting the same trick: maybe a great DAC/amplifier for portable use (although I wouldn't need it and, considering a lot of owners are actually using it with Lisa, Pico, Predator etc, again, what's the point in having circuits you are not going to use?!) and definitely a great digital, bit perfect, high-end source for my JH 3A or my main hifi setup at home.
The Iriver H1XX was the last great portable player in the market sporting a digital output. At the same time a lot of people (and there are several dedicated threads on this forum) are looking for a portable digital output for their expensive and sofisticated gear. I'm sure it's much easier and cheaper to implement it than to design an advanced portable DAC. So why ignore this need? If the Hifiman would have had this extra output, allowing me to connect it to my main system, to my Meridian F80 or to (possibly) my future Jh 3A digitally, I might have seriously considered getting one.

 

[testrichard]

friend, you use "certain" words too frequently and quoting other person's words (or put words in their mouth ) too often........ it could get you into agrument easily such as how could you know what fang is thinking ? u start the thread that you never met him before but your post sound like you really knows what the world goes around and whats in his head
 
how about MD / sony D50/D10 etc for digital output ? thought they have digital out put or we talking about different things ? then ask if hifiman got optical coaxial out put or not. how much data you want from 24 bit ? it can only be that much regardless digital or optical..... we are getting technical and in redudunt way i think .... i can feel your excitement totally from your words about the changes and the new toys thats coming etc..... but bit too much hype to me? i lookforward for a world of 6Gps Esata ~ and the Intel's Datalink or USB 3 every where around the world or even HDMI data trasfer cable ~ but all and all they are just the deliver method for data/information/message....... digg deeper then you are letting the technology play you not the other way around~
 
i m sure i could learn alot from you or every one here but being polite i have master degree and determine to become CMT holder in next year or so. so i know how to flip the TV power button and not stupid at all

 

[revenge]

That's good for you, Testrichard, congratulations.
 
Regarding putting words in other people's mouths, check the other thread.
 
MD's, tapes, who wants to go back 10-20 years? I don't.
 
Does Hifiman have a coaxial/optical output? The official site only mentions line out and headphone out and I have seen no reference regarding the digital output capabilities of the Hifiman.

 

[testrichard]

 
Quote:

That's good for you, Testrichard, congratulations.
 
Regarding putting words in other people's mouths, check the other thread.
 
MD's, tapes, who wants to go back 10-20 years? I don't.
 
Does Hifiman have a coaxial/optical output? The official site only mentions line out and headphone out and I have seen no reference regarding the digital output capabilities of the Hifiman.

 
we are still waiting for some one to make that cable a reality you are right i havent hear Benchmark or a Lavry yet? or perhaps i did during my trip in Taiwan~ i had  the chance to test lots of gear and i might have an extremely rare DAP or amp in front of me not knowing while i mess up all the settings flipping all the switches lol
 

 

[jaygot]

So what I take from this thread is that there may be room in the market for: 
 
A simple, reasonably-priced, highly portable, music player with a long battery life that also boasts digital output (i.e., optical and/or coax), making it easy for users to hook the device up to their DACs (or DAC/AMP combos) of choice.  Of course, it would have to be high capacity or support removable storage since its owners would likely have some high quality (and thus large) files.
 
Is this a fair assessment?  I ask because, as an owner of the iBasso D10, this is exactly what I've been looking for (since I can't get my hands on an old iRiver).