[mfer]

So, I've been researching headphones for weeks now, reading a bit each night and it is getting overloaded for me. I also considered some near field desktop setup but I've heard a few high end speakers and amps recently and lower volume is not worth it.

So, I'm getting to the point where I just feel like I need to buy something online and cross my fingers. None of this stuff can be bought/heard locally. So I was thinking the Sennheiser hd 650 or the cheaper 6xx but there is a long wait for those. Seems like the moderate entry point into decent headphones.

That leads me to, DAC and AMP. This is where I'm totally lost. Can I get some recommendations here? Should I go separate DAC and AMP? I'd eventually like to get a nice 2 channel stereo amp for some decent speakers to listen to in a small room when headphones are tiring.

BTW, I don't like in ear (had airpod pros and some sony's). I do have Sony xm4's right now that I use for some music and crap tons of conference calls. I like the flexibility of walking around on those conf calls.

Let's say my budget for DAC / Headphone AMP is....$500? But if you can say, "Hey for $700 you can grow into it with blah...." I'm all about spending wisely. I can see me getting more headphones and like I mentioned a separate AMP for some decent towers/bookshelves. All music would be streaming Tidal or something similar. Thanks.

EDIT: Bonus for anything I can get from BH photo, I have $100 card there.

 

[pbui44]

Use your gift card on these:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...chnica_ath_r70x_pro_reference_headphones.html

Get this DAC now and some Kali Audio LP-6 2nd Wave speakers and XLR cables later:

https://www.schiit.com/products/modius

Get this amp that should work well ATH-R70x, even with its 470 ohm impedance:

https://www.amazon.com/Desktop-Headphone-Amplifier-Remote-Control/dp/B091239T3B

 

[Powermankw]

So, I recently did same... I stream. I have a desktop system... Near field, but that isn't really near field. NF is being in the middle of the room with no interference from anything, including a desk. Regardless, my system sounds fantastic. Certainly worth it... But I don't get low volume... Cause you can't disturb others? NF isn't low volume, but it is less power needed to be loud.

One thing is, no HP will ever be 2 ch. It's just not the same. So if you like 2 channel, get 2 ch.

One thing to consider would be active speakers. The KEF actives are king of the hill these days. You would be able to get a HP amp/pre amp to run them. Look at Matrix Audio Mini-i 3 pro. It is out side your budget, but a fantastic all-in-one that makes a great dac/amp and pre for actives.

With the budget you are stating, I don't see a point of seperate. It's not going to make a difference, plus you need cables. Stringing together more boxes starts making sense if you are going best of best. The Mini is everything... Top of the line... Very versatile for a $1000. There is the Naim Atom headphone edition that rivals many seperate at $3000. Just saying... Seperate are not end all be all for everything.

I have the sonys, and Utopias. The sonys are nice. They sound great, don't need any gear. I don't know how much better 6xx are. I think in general price points, differences are just not as big as they are made out to be. Pick gear widely reviewed and widely used by many. It's pretty safe. You will not be missing out on anything "drastically better". I recently got "end game" but not sumitt gear. Even I know "better" is subjective hair splitting in general.

And last... I've been in many hobbies... Buy once, cry once is better than the endless upgrade train. It's much less expensive.

 

[earmonger]

As linked above, the ATH-R70X are just wonderful, especially if you get an amp to maximize their dynamics. Depending on your source you may not even need a DAC. For speakers, other folks have expertise.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

So, I've been researching headphones for weeks now, reading a bit each night and it is getting overloaded for me. I also considered some near field desktop setup but I've heard a few high end speakers and amps recently and lower volume is not worth it.

So, I'm getting to the point where I just feel like I need to buy something online and cross my fingers. None of this stuff can be bought/heard locally. So I was thinking the Sennheiser hd 650 or the cheaper 6xx but there is a long wait for those. Seems like the moderate entry point into decent headphones.

That leads me to, DAC and AMP. This is where I'm totally lost. Can I get some recommendations here? Should I go separate DAC and AMP?

That depends on the connectivity options, what you need them for and what you may need them for in the future. No, I wouldn't worry about it based on whether there are downsides to performance, it's very rare for there to be a problem like noise crossing each circuit (Schiit was having this problem before and thus why they only sold separate DACs and HPamps but their newer stuff don't have this issue) or power output dropping when it has to run the DAC circuit as well (between 2V from the built in DAC of my Meier Cantate.2 and an external portable DAC-HPamp with a line out that only outputs 1.2V, this amp has so little noise it barely matters unless there's USB-generated noise between the source and the portable DAC-HPamp, which wasn't very good at preventing that despite having its own battery for power).

For example the more basic AudioGD's don't have analogue inputs, so if the DAC circuit busts a cap(acitor) or whatever, you can't just hook up a DAC, you need to get it fixed to use it again. Schiit's optional DAC modules only have USB, and some initially had driver issues that messed up the sound (AFAIK they got fixed sometime after that). On the upside it's on a card on the board so you can just replace the module or get a different DAC and use the analogue inputs on the Schiit amp in case the DAC fails. Or if the amp fails the AudioGD now has the advantage of having fixed line out as a DAC, while the Asgard3 (assuming it's not the preamp that's busted) will only output a premp variable voltage signal. Note though that by the time something like this actually happens you might be itching to upgrade anyway. Obsolescence of a USB input-only DAC is more likely as new standards come out and they can't support legacy USB versions anymore, but hey that's why Schiit puts them on a module that you can replace.

Other configs are out there though. Meier did away with integrated units and now sell the DAC and HPamp separately, but be aware that the preamp output is on the DAC unit. This way there's no need to switch on the HPamp if you're only feeding a preamp signal to a speaker power amp, ie, not an integrated amp (has its own preamp built in).

I'd eventually like to get a nice 2 channel stereo amp for some decent speakers to listen to in a small room when headphones are tiring.

If they're in the same room and you can arrange the upstream active electronics in one spot then you can easily integrate them - same source, then DAC, then either the DAC (Meier) or DAC-HPamp (most brands) or the HPamp will send a preamp signal to a speaker power amp. Using an integrated amp will tend to complicate this as you'll need two fixed level line outputs; although if you get a balanced DAC that runs balanced and single-ended you can place almost everything near the speakers and just run long, balanced preamp cables to the headphone amp. Or the DAC-HPamp has balanced headphone output so you can just run a longer cable to where you'll sit, but the problem here is few have remotes to let you control the volume on the DAC-HPamp easily. Alternately everything can be closer to where you'd listen and just run longer cables to the speakers since that matters a lot less than preamp signals going through longer cables, which also keeps both the HPamp and preamp for the speaker power amp within arm's reach.

If that seems overwhelming, well, just lay out the room and how you want the stuff to work and where, and we can work out what stuff to use to work that way in that location.

Let's say my budget for DAC / Headphone AMP is....$500? But if you can say, "Hey for $700 you can grow into it with blah...." I'm all about spending wisely. I can see me getting more headphones and like I mentioned a separate AMP for some decent towers/bookshelves. All music would be streaming Tidal or something similar. Thanks.

I'd figure out first how you want this stuff in the room and how you plan to expand it with a speaker system.

Although if you'd keep the speaker system separate it can simplify everything a bit downstream of the source...it's the source being used for two systems or having two separate sources that will then complicate it. Then again if you want the speakers for super serious listening and use vinyl there while using digital for the headphone rig (especially with binaural recordings) then that makes everything easier.

EDIT: Bonus for anything I can get from BH photo, I have $100 card there.

I'd probably just save that for a cam/lens (if you're into this) or laptop to be honest.

 

[mfer]

Wow, thanks for all of the replies. Some very good information.
1. ATH-R70X look very interesting. Seems to be warmer from a few youtubers and likely more demanding on amp selectivity. Lightweight is a big pro. What amp are you all using to drive them?
2. The reason I was thinking separates is b/c the amp and headphones don't change NEARLY as much as the DAC. I see the zen blue is out with Bluetooth 5 and really good s/n ratio and it $120. It only has the bluetooth and was wondering if others were out there, like the Topping DX3 Pro +. DAC, Bluetooth, HPamp, outputs. Has that old printer USB connection. I don't even know if I have that cable. Ha.

​

 

[Powermankw]

DACs don't change much either. They still have that old printer USB... File resolutions don't change much. For all those awesome hi-res formats... Very little content is in them. By far most is still CD quality. The DAC itself hasn't changed much. Streaming has changed.... network or Wi-Fi is much better... Most DACs have coaxial/optical which most convert from USB with more boxes... Or USB. Bluetooth generally sucks. AptX still isn't widespread let alone better protocols, and old BT isn't even CD quality. None of this stuff is forever gear. Get the connections you need, with functions you need, be done. It's not as complicated as we make it. That's from a life long complicator.

 

[mfer]

DACs don't change much either. They still have that old printer USB... File resolutions don't change much. For all those awesome hi-res formats... Very little content is in them. By far most is still CD quality. The DAC itself hasn't changed much. Streaming has changed.... network or Wi-Fi is much better... Most DACs have coaxial/optical which most convert from USB with more boxes... Or USB. Bluetooth generally sucks. AptX still isn't widespread let alone better protocols, and old BT isn't even CD quality. None of this stuff is forever gear. Get the connections you need, with functions you need, be done. It's not as complicated as we make it. That's from a life long complicator.

So, crap or get off the pot (ad lib here)

Maybe I just get the Senn 650 and the DX3 pro+ and see where I go. Gotta be better than what I have. Getting tired of the research at this point. Want to hear.

 

[earmonger]

I run my ATH-R70X from a Schiit Magni 3 and sometimes just from my MacBook Air. The Magni is a maybe 20% general improvement but they're fine from the Mac. I really don't think you need to worry about a separate DAC unless you have an ancient computer soundcard or a low-budget phone as your source -- amp will have much more effect.

And I know I'm pushy, but the ATH-R70X might be better for you. pbui44, the other ATH-R70X fan up above, is a dealer who has probably heard a lot more headphones than I have.

By many accounts the Senn HD650 and HD6XX are similar and a bit veiled up top compared to the HD600. Check around the reviews (I know you already have but that seems pretty consistent in comparing HD650/6XX to HD600).

People complain about clamping force of Sennheisers too.

Many eons ago I had the loan of some high-end Sennheisers -- before I was conscious of model numbers -- and found them very dull up top; I figured they'd be good for classical and jazz but not for more synthetic/produced stuff that goes to extremes. They were just...polite. Even the most enthusiastic reviews say they lack bite.

Those Sennheiser models have been around for a long time, at least since the early 2000s, and they were acclaimed early on as class-leading, so there's a kind of inertia there. The ATH-R70X aren't exactly brand new either but people (like me) keep getting excited about them.

Somewhere when I was researching my headphones I ran across an account of the ATH-R70X that said AT admired the Sennheiser HD600 and wanted to improve on it, and that stuck with me. That and the reviews saying the ATH-R70X are reference-transparent up top -- they are -- and they can go deep (claiming bass down to 5 Hz), and that they are light and ultra-comfortable (they are). Plus you can cash in your B&H card to get them.

B&H has a 30-day return policy in case I am steering you wrong -- just don't destroy the packaging. The ATH-R70X does come in a kind of a tricky sleeve package, so be careful both opening the mailer and extracting the box from the sleeve. (There's a YouTube unboxing that I ended up watching.)

After you open them very carefully, you are not going to want to return them anyway

 

[Powermankw]

So, crap or get off the pot (ad lib here)

Maybe I just get the Senn 650 and the DX3 pro+ and see where I go. Gotta be better than what I have. Getting tired of the research at this point. Want to hear.

I get it for sure. Trust me, I do the same. Yes there are others, but Topping, iFi, and schiit are certainly well represented. Doesn't seem you can make a mistake with any. You have done your research, pull the trigger, find out.

 

[mfer]

I run my ATH-R70X from a Schiit Magni 3 and sometimes just from my MacBook Air. The Magni is a maybe 20% general improvement but they're fine from the Mac. I really don't think you need to worry about a separate DAC unless you have an ancient computer soundcard or a low-budget phone as your source -- amp will have much more effect.

And I know I'm pushy, but the ATH-R70X might be better for you. pbui44, the other ATH-R70X fan up above, is a dealer who has probably heard a lot more headphones than I have.

By many accounts the Senn HD650 and HD6XX are similar and a bit veiled up top compared to the HD600. Check around the reviews (I know you already have but that seems pretty consistent in comparing HD650/6XX to HD600).

People complain about clamping force of Sennheisers too.

Many eons ago I had the loan of some high-end Sennheisers -- before I was conscious of model numbers -- and found them very dull up top; I figured they'd be good for classical and jazz but not for more synthetic/produced stuff that goes to extremes. They were just...polite. Even the most enthusiastic reviews say they lack bite.

Those Sennheiser models have been around for a long time, at least since the early 2000s, and they were acclaimed early on as class-leading, so there's a kind of inertia there. The ATH-R70X aren't exactly brand new either but people (like me) keep getting excited about them.

Somewhere when I was researching my headphones I ran across an account of the ATH-R70X that said AT admired the Sennheiser HD600 and wanted to improve on it, and that stuck with me. That and the reviews saying the ATH-R70X are reference-transparent up top -- they are -- and they can go deep (claiming bass down to 5 Hz), and that they are light and ultra-comfortable (they are). Plus you can cash in your B&H card to get them.

B&H has a 30-day return policy in case I am steering you wrong -- just don't destroy the packaging. The ATH-R70X does come in a kind of a tricky sleeve package, so be careful both opening the mailer and extracting the box from the sleeve. (There's a YouTube unboxing that I ended up watching.)

After you open them very carefully, you are not going to want to return them anyway

Clamping sucks for me....glasses. Can I ask your primary music genre? I listen to all but have my preferences depending on my work, wine, beer mood. I can see that the 650's vs R70's might have some variance. I could maybe get both eventually as I "hear" the benefits from both per the youtube gods. I'll be honest, primarily I'm rock and roll, punk and classical. I do crave the bass and r&b from time to time as well. There is basically not much I don't like, so I've decided I'll need more than 1 eventually.

I get it for sure. Trust me, I do the same. Yes there are others, but Topping, iFi, and schiit are certainly well represented. Doesn't seem you can make a mistake with any. You have done your research, pull the trigger, find out.

thx

 

[earmonger]

I wear glasses too. The ATH-R70X take a while -- hours -- to make themselves noticeable, but it will depend on what kind of temples your frames use. Those wacky wing things under the headband, which must be on springs, somehow balance the (light) weight of the phones on top of the head; the slotted headband, up above them and not touching your head, is very flexible and does not make you feel like your head is in a nutcracker, like some headphones I've had (hello Sony 7506).

I listen to rock, classical, jazz, R&B, Brazilian, African, electronic,


and all sorts of stuff. I find the ATH-R70X makes acoustic instruments sound natural and lets electric/synthetic ones hover in warp space if they want to. When I prefer super-upfront guitars and voices, I switch to my Grado SR325. But they get uncomfortable faster and sound more, well, crowded than the ATH-R70X.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

1. ATH-R70X look very interesting. Seems to be warmer from a few youtubers and likely more demanding on amp selectivity. Lightweight is a big pro. What amp are you all using to drive them?

At 470ohms nominal impedance, even with 99dB/1mW sensitivity it's going to need a fair bit of voltage to get it louder. Regular headphone amps tend to do well for 32ohm to 150ohm headphones and not even 300ohms as some amps tend to drop off output far too much by 300ohms. Heck some can start out with more than enough power to get a 93dB/1mW, 35ohm HiFiMan louder than a 97dB/1mW, 300ohm Sennheiser despite the latter's much higher sensitivity.

At the same time while the easy way out is to use an OTL amp that will produce peak power at around 300ohms, then usually produce around half that at 150ohms and 600ohms, these aren't going to deliver a lot of power into lower impedance headphones, many of which tend to also have lower sensitivity and thus require more power.

If you want to be super safe, Violectric amps have very high voltage output and can handle lower impedance headphones in case you decide to switch. The downside is these go for $600 or way more.

2. The reason I was thinking separates is b/c the amp and headphones don't change NEARLY as much as the DAC.

They don't change due to drastic performance difference (if there's even any) the way laptops change CPUs (and GPUs for gaming laptops) when a new chip architecture comes out. They change pretty much for the same reason laptops and phones change, ie, connectivity, ie setting aside Zen 3 and Alder Lake for example changes are due more to getting USB-C and/or Thunderbolt being faster and having higher bandwidth (ie look at how USB port extenders on Macbooks get you legacy USB ports and video output) or PCI-E 4.0 for the boot drive (and discrete graphics for those designed for gaming).

Apart from that, had AMD not stepped in with Ryzen on dekstop then Zen2 and Zen3, and then later the Apple M1 chip, we'd all pretty much still be on quad cores with incremental connectivity upgrades (save for some Dell Vostros and comparable HPs using Xeon mobile processors).

I see the zen blue is out with Bluetooth 5 and really good s/n ratio and it $120. It only has the bluetooth and was wondering if others were out there, like the Topping DX3 Pro +. DAC, Bluetooth, HPamp, outputs. Has that old printer USB connection. I don't even know if I have that cable. Ha.

​

I'm not sure what you're referring to here...do you mean the optical output?

I've never heard of a printer using that since the printer I had when I was in 4th grade used a serial port...

...back when my Microsoft Sidewinder game pads a few years later had to plug into a gameport that then had to be disconnected so I can plug in a joystick.

If you're thinking it looks like USB-B, no, it's not. USB-B isn't even that old, a lot of DACs still use it because 1) they're not made by Apple, 2) they're not Made for Apple products (which then use USB-A...if they had the 30-pin ports), and 3) they're not meant to be thin nor perpetual disconnection and reconnection like a phone charger. And even if they are made to be thin, they used to use USB-B mini. It has only been in the past two years that portable DACs are switching to USB-C, and desktop amps aren't switching at the same pace since they're not as likely to be used with smartphones.

The optical connection uses light to go through the cable and these cables are extremely fragile. The only successful mobile implementation I've seen is an angled cable meant for iRivers and some portable DAC-HPamps. Otherwise it's 8th Grade me hooking up a MiniDisc player to the home CDP to copy a CD into the MiniDisc.

And for the iFi Zen Blue specifically, again, this is just a matter of connectivity, not performance. The SPDIF outputs (coax and optical) are not even inputs from a source, they're digital ie unconverted outputs from the Zen Blue. That thing is really meant to just receive a BT 5.0 ie slightly compressed signal then either convert it and spit it out as analogue audio, or just pass it through to another DAC if you're just adding BT to an extant system with spare ports for convenience. For example maybe your audio system is in the living room with the rear patio door near enough - add the iFi Zen Blue and you can hook it up to the integrated amp or preamp via the analogue output or the DAC (or HT receiver that somehow still has optical inputs), so now you can conveniently stream Spotify and have music while BBQing in the patio or otherwise have guests in the kitchen. Or maybe it's still for solo listening and you use Spotify for albums you haven't bought yet or the music you're less serious about. Whatever. It's all up to the listener, if he doesn't mind his favorite albums getting compressed so long as he can easily control playback order and choices, then that's up to him/her too.

 

[mfer]

I'm not sure what you're referring to here...do you mean the optical output?

I was referring to the Topping DX3 Pro+ and the USB input which I think is officially called 2.0b format (could be wrong). These are very commonly used for printers.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I was referring to the Topping DX3 Pro+ and the USB input which I think is officially called 2.0b format (could be wrong). These are very commonly used for printers.

That's USB-B and they're used for any accessory that doesn't have to be thin. Printers are just one example. All desktop DACs pre-USB-C use that and still use it.

Meier Cantate.2 (2010-ish)

Meier DACcord (2017-ish)

AudioGD NFB-12 (2011-ish)

Schiit Bifrost (since the first one all had USB-B)

Audio interfaces and soundcards with 2-way signal paths (DAC and ADC) use them too

Car audio processors+RTAs use them too so you can control them via a laptop

If the DAC-HPamp or DAC needed to be thin it will use USB-B mini

It's not even just audio...here's a monitor that uses it connect storage devices or a PC to update firmware on the monitor.

And here's a USB-B 3.0 dock.

In short...it's not rare as to be just for printers much less a "legacy" port. Since not all host devices only shifted to USB-C recently only portable devices have started switching to USB-C en masse; desktop DACs might still presumably be hooked up to computers with USB-A ports so they're maintaining USB-B for now.