A laptop with a great DAC preinstalled?
Mar 16, 2012 at 10:43 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 19

SunnyWeather

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Are there any such laptop that have a "better-then-the-usual-noisy-hissy-unclear" audio implemented?
 
I'm just so portable and am researching before I take the plunge to replace my old laptop that has a very good PCMCIA audio card inside (PCMCIA not supported anymore) ..
 
Mar 16, 2012 at 11:08 AM Post #2 of 19
It would be nice if there were such laptops, at least I dont know.
 
There is Mac and maybe HP but they are too commercial and not really up to the task. There are self powered usb dacs, like Centrance and as long as you dont need inputs, todays usb dacs are very good.
 
Mar 16, 2012 at 12:04 PM Post #3 of 19
Clearly if you're looking for a laptop with the best implemented audio, get one with Beats Audio inside
biggrin.gif

 
Ok, couldn't resist. Seriously though, when considering a laptop you have to take into account not only the internal DAC, but also the internal amp (assuming you're simply plugging your headphones into the headphone jack). Generally, these components won't be up to the task if you are a demanding listener.
 
The newer MacBook Pro (and Air I believe) have a fairly nice audio-out, so you could pass pure digital music to an external DAC via Toslink and then get an amp. In this case your using the laptop as a source only and should also consider after market music players such as Pure Music.
 
Another portable option, if you have an iPod, would be to get a LOD and a portable amp/dac.
 
If you really want to get into this hobby (it's very hard to resist) I would consider the routes I mentioned above. If you only want a laptop, I can recommend the new MBP, as it's the best sounding I've hear.
 
 
 
Mar 16, 2012 at 12:26 PM Post #6 of 19
The hissing is probably a function of low impedance/high sensitivity headphones being plugged into the output; this is common with horn-loaded speakers as well (and many IEMs plugged into lots of devices; my Denon 751s will do this with most headphone jacks for example (they're something like 12 ohms nominal) - even my MDR-F1s (a whopping 16 ohms nominal) won't hiss in many of the same situations). The grounding noises common on many PCs is a QA thing; some systems do it, some systems don't, and there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason in determining what will and won't (I've heard of people cycling motherboards through four or five RMAs and actually getting some that work and some that don't). 
 
I would say buy a laptop that suits all of your needs generally, and if the onboard audio doesn't work out, add an external device (there's a plethora of USB devices out there) and life should be good (even if you need inputs, again, there's LOTS of options). 
 
 
 
 
 
Mar 16, 2012 at 3:05 PM Post #8 of 19


Quote:
 
I would say buy a laptop that suits all of your needs generally, and if the onboard audio doesn't work out, add an external device (there's a plethora of USB devices out there) and life should be good (even if you need inputs, again, there's LOTS of options). 
 
 
 
 


Thank You,
 
wich DAC/AMP do you like, have you used some? I would then be searching for a neutral HQ one... Thanks!
 
 
Mar 16, 2012 at 8:54 PM Post #10 of 19

I'll tell you this, and I'll qualify that this isn't popular: they're all going to be transparent (DACs that is), and there isn't going to be an audible difference betwixt them aside from level mismatch. DAC is a DAC. From $50 to $50,000. You decide how much you think the feature is worth (the TOTL converter chips are around $22/ea raw, keep that in mind when you start eyeing $15,000 converters).
 
Amp wise I'm in about the same boat, but I'd at least check under the hood and make sure it can driver what you're plugging it into - if it can handle the load it will be equivalent to anything else that can handle the load (sound wise, or otherwise); again, from $50 to $50,000. You decide what you feel like spending. 
 
In terms of absolute functionality/usefulness, if you're getting a little USB box to plug into, I like the new X-Fi HD External because it has a phono preamp, RCA inputs/outputs, a headphone amplifier, and it costs around $50. The E-MU 0404 is also very popular, but maybe too large to lug around. There's also the HeadRoom USB model that can be "stuck" to your computer, and can run on it's own batteries; Fiio has some equivalent models to the HeadRoom box as well. 
Quote:
Thank You,
 
wich DAC/AMP do you like, have you used some? I would then be searching for a neutral HQ one... Thanks!
 



 
 
Mar 17, 2012 at 8:05 AM Post #11 of 19
 
Quote:
I'll tell you this, and I'll qualify that this isn't popular: they're all going to be transparent (DACs that is), and there isn't going to be an audible difference between them aside from level mismatch. DAC is a DAC. From $50 to $50,000

 
 
But, why would I then hear a big difference in clarity between my Digigram vxPocket (around 800$ back in the old days) and the internal soundblaster in my laptop?
Only the headphone amp?
 
If that is true, nobody would need Lavry converters, a soundblaster would suffice...
 
There are also DAC-s like Burl (AD/DA) that are described like creamy sounding, is that only because the analog stages after the converter (transformers?)?
 
So, are you then saying that there is no difference between Wolfson and PCM or any other DA chip?
Why would Texas instruments then produce so many different ones?
 
 
Mar 17, 2012 at 3:39 PM Post #12 of 19

PCM is a data format, not a manufacturer. It's not in the same schema as AKM, TI, Cirrus, etc.
 
Now, regarding "why would I hear a big difference" - it's hard to actually quantify your subjective qualification of "big difference" and it's hard to know that you're hearing a difference between the actual D/A stages; there's far too many variables being changed to make that comparison valid. That's usually the problem in comparing two devices when you don't have lab equipment. 
 
Regarding the immediate jump to the logical fallacy "well a more expensive one exists, it MUST have a purpose" - dismiss that, it doesn't help. More expensive options will always exist, and that doesn't make them better or worse, they're just more expensive. It's a completely disjoint conversation. It's like if I tell you that any car that can do 75 mph in a safe manner is suitable for on-road use (if you're not an American, 75 mph is the speed most of our Interstate Highways are graded for, it's like 120kph), and you respond "nonsense, if that was true there'd be no reason for anyone to own a Maybach, we could all use Honda Insights" - of course we COULD all use Honda Insights! Over-building and over-specing a device doesn't matter when it comes to serving a specific need; just because it *can* go 150 mph or measures 3x lower distortion or whatever else, it ceases to matter when you can't audibly perceive that difference (or legally go that speed), or when there's too much other noise/interference to make that distinction possible (both are true).
 
Regarding the "sound signature" argument - that's a bit more contentious. It depends on what's going on inside the device; some components apply a "house curve" (noise shaping, EQ) to their signals in order to produce an effect that the designer liked. Some devices simply have a hotter output which makes them identifiable in non-controlled tests (and usually they "win" those comparisons). 
 
Regarding why TI and Wolfson and so on produce so many different models - different applications. For example the chips that go into your car are different than the chips in your CD player, and the chips that can talk USB are different than the chips that can talk I2S. There's also different feature-sets; does it have to decode 24-bit signals, or 20-bit signals, or 16-bit signals? How physically big or small can it be? How much power does it consume? Things like that. 
 
When you get into "hi-fi" though, there's a relatively small pool of chips that are picked from, and they're used very frequently. Like TI's PCM1704. It does not change because it is in a Yamaha or Denon or Krell device; it's the same 1704. Now the device it gets put into may have some sort of "house curve" or some DSP adjustment/correction suite going on, or it may have better shielding, or it may have a hotter output, or it may have a better volume control scheme, or whatever - those things can make a difference in the right context. That still doesn't change the 1704. 
 
Finally, when you look at the actual specs for these converters, most of them (and this is a "modern times" kind of thing) exceed the requirements placed on them by the material they're playing back (like CD audio), or hit the limits of physics (that 120 dB SNR line) - so sure you might gain a dB or two of SNR or you might drop a millionth of a percent of distortion, but it's already so far below the overall noisefloor and below being audible that it stops mattering. That doesn't mean some people don't want to pay for the piece of mind associated with a fancier component. Finally, some of those fancier components do a lot more than just DtoA - like the Benchmark DAC, which is also a headphone amplifier, input selector, and so on. It's not just a raw DtoA box. 
 
So what I'm saying is, approach things logically. Know what you're getting into. Any (modern) DtoA chip by itself is going to be "good enough," so as long as it's in a device that's competently put together (meaning it won't fall apart in a month, and it doesn't have grounding issues, and it won't damage your other equipment, and so on), it should still be "good enough" - there's no point in spending a million dollars when $100 can solve the problem. I don't think any of the components suggested to you in this thread fit into that "bad" category - they will all be perfectly transparent as a DtoA, but many of them have different features (for example the X-Fi has the phono preamp; that isn't a DtoA function, but it may be useful to you, the HeadRoom devices usually have crossfeed, the Audio-GD devices are supposed to have extremely robust amplifiers, etc). 
 
 
Quote:
 
 
 
But, why would I then hear a big difference in clarity between my Digigram vxPocket (around 800$ back in the old days) and the internal soundblaster in my laptop?
Only the headphone amp?
 
If that is true, nobody would need Lavry converters, a soundblaster would suffice...
 
There are also DAC-s like Burl (AD/DA) that are described like creamy sounding, is that only because the analog stages after the converter (transformers?)?
 
So, are you then saying that there is no difference between Wolfson and PCM or any other DA chip?
Why would Texas instruments then produce so many different ones?
 



 
 
Jul 3, 2015 at 11:17 AM Post #14 of 19
I own a HP M6 1205dx and the speakers are actually pretty decent for laptop speakers. BUT, the internal DAC sucks. It certainly supports high resolution (24/192) but that's about it. Everything else about it sucks. I can't get it to work properly on a pair of headphones no matter what i do with the EQ. It always sounds off. There isn't enough punch in the bass and I can never seem to get it. Overall, just crap. Seems to work well enough with the built-in speakers but never works with a pair of headphones.
 
Mar 17, 2016 at 6:00 PM Post #15 of 19
Hi,
Usually they ship with realtek, which is good at best. Their drivers are badly optimized, one could use the Microsoft drivers instead /less boomy, but no hissing/
But combine them with foobar+wasapi and you can get a quite decent sound.
 

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