A Bass Powerhouse that can rival the HD800s detail retrieval?

[r343]

Couple of options
- Get Arya Organic, it has the bass and soundstage, treble timbre and smoothness is weaker than HD800 but there ain't no perfect solution.
- Or get decent tube amp and maybe it will fill the void, like Feliks Echo Mk2.

 

[alecenriquez]

After doing a good bit of research on my original list, MDR-Z1R, TH900mk2, LCD-XC (knocked off the Denons and EMU Teaks), I've pretty much narrowed it down to the Sony MDR-Z1R for a closed back set .

Reasoning:
1. I get concerned with the comfort reports on the TH900mk2 and LCD-XC
2. TH900mk2 seems to have the most bass presence of the 3, but I'm worried about that V-sound signature a little. My ultrasones have that same signature and almost sibilant treble, which can be fatiguing, and I don't want to head in that direction.
3. Been seeing the Sony will need minimal EQ and aren't difficult to drive, so for my application, it seems pretty appropriate as I don't have a great DAC/AMP and would like the set to usable even when I don't have my setup with me.

Now that I've narrowed that down a bit, I've seen a ton of people mentioning the Arya organics.

Yeah it's a rare person who wants to spend $6,000 on headphones

The HE1000s are like higher end Aryas. The differences aren't large tho. I don't have a favorite. I just recommend the Arya Organic

The 007 is considered the best headphones ever made by some people. The 404LE is older and more rare.

You can get the 404LE cheaper then the 007. If you get the 007mk2 it's important to do the blutac mod to get proper bass response. Can't go wrong with the 007 or 404LE

Couple of options
- Get Arya Organic, it has the bass and soundstage, treble timbre and smoothness is weaker than HD800 but there ain't no perfect solution.
- Or get decent tube amp and maybe it will fill the void, like Feliks Echo Mk2.

It sounds like they might be the best open back competitors for the Sony's in my use case.

Anyone compare the two or have insight? From my understanding, it seems like the Sony's will have slightly more bass presence and better build quality, but the Organics might be better in the rest of the categories. Can the organics compete in terms of bass with the right EQ?

 

[atomLI631]

have you looked into the LCD-X 21? The bass is amazing and with EQ it sounds like a subwoofer inside your ears.

 

[MDKrinkles]

have you looked into the LCD-X 21? The bass is amazing and with EQ it sounds like a subwoofer inside your ears.

I have the XC bubinga (not sure the year, had the newer headband type). With the dekoni sheepskins the low end is just wild. Bass drums sound extremely physical. Bass extension just seemingly doesn’t end. Arguably the best low end out of all my headphones. I’d maybe say I prefer the LCD2 but that’s just cuz it has a warmer over all signature and not cuz the bass is actually better.

 

[ST33L]

I have/had the Fostex TH900mk2 and Sony MDR-Z1R, and they don’t have the detail and soundstage of the HD800S, which I also owned. The closest I found that provides a similar presentation w/impactful bass in the $1K range, especially when EQ’ed, is the Hifiman HE1000 Stealth. You can also check out Audeze LCD-X. BTW, my favorite all-rounder is the TH900mk2.

 

[alecenriquez]

I have/had the Fostex TH900mk2 and Sony MDR-Z1R, and they don’t have the detail and soundstage of the HD800S, which I also owned. The closest I found that provides a similar presentation w/impactful bass in the $1K range, especially when EQ’ed, is the Hifiman HE1000 Stealth. You can also check out Audeze LCD-X. BTW, my favorite all-rounder is the TH900mk2.

Can you expand more on why the fostex is your favorite all rounder?

I was really leaning towards the arya organic (can be talked into the he1000 stealth if the price difference is absolutely worth it) or the MDR-Z1R, but you've definitely thrown a wrench in that as you've tried pretty much every headphone in question

 

[ST33L]

Can you expand more on why the fostex is your favorite all rounder?

I was really leaning towards the arya organic (can be talked into the he1000 stealth if the price difference is absolutely worth it) or the MDR-Z1R, but you've definitely thrown a wrench in that as you've tried pretty much every headphone in question

Ha… I really liked the MDR-Z1R, but the TH900mk2 had more impactful bass, with slightly better detail and imagining. When I wanted a fun headphone, I inevitably reach(ed) for the TH900s. I decided that they were too similar to keep both, so I sold the Sonys. They were, however, one of the most comfortable headphones that I’ve ever owned. You can’t go wrong with either. GL

 

[alecenriquez]

Update:
I ended up picking up a pair of Arya Organics from the classfields on here.

Will report back with a comparison with the HD800S.

 

[bagwell359]

Reasoning:

2. TH900mk2 seems to have the most bass presence of the 3, but I'm worried about that V-sound signature a little. My ultrasones have that same signature and almost sibilant treble, which can be fatiguing, and I don't want to head in that direction.

It's +6 db+ under 300 Hz. It's v shaped, it doesn't image like an 800, and it doesn't have the detail in mids or highs. It's very built, attractive, and 'fun'.

3. Been seeing the Sony will need minimal EQ and aren't difficult to drive, so for my application, it seems pretty appropriate as I don't have a great DAC/AMP and would like the set to usable even when I don't have my setup with me.

Now that I've narrowed that down a bit, I've seen a ton of people mentioning the Arya organics.

Minimal PEQ? for the MDR-ZR1? From 250 Hz-2.5k it's way under water - very much a V shape.

I'm a timbre accuracy guy and I don't care for either of those.

Organics closer to Harman than these other two, I see you got them, hope you like them.

 

[MDKrinkles]

Organics feel like a good choice. I don’t have a ton of experience with them but when I tried them they sounded like a better version of my nanos which I feel sound very natural to my ears but don’t lack in low end.

 

[ST33L]

Update:
I ended up picking up a pair of Arya Organics from the classfields on here.

Will report back with a comparison with the HD800S.

How do you like them?

 

[alecenriquez]

Hey everyone, now that I've had the Organics for a week, here is a little head to head matchup with my Sennheisers and a breakdown of how each performed in important categories:

Lows (Arya 8/10, Senn 6/10): The entire reason I bought the Aryas was because of the seemingly general consensus that their bass was robust while maintaining a large portion of the clarity and accuracy the Senns provided. While the Arya's bass is noticeably better than the Senns, it doesn't reproduce the impact and energy I'm quite looking for in a set. Still, I imagine many open backs can't produce the quantity they can, so I'm not necessarily disappointed. The Senns however did ultimately disappoint me in terms of the low end. It's accurate but in many of the song ratings below, I found that the underwhelming bass presence was the reason the Senns didn't score higher.

Mids (Arya 8/10, Senn 9/10): The mid frequencies are typically more soothing with the Senns. I never found them to be distracting and are balanced well with the rest of the spectrum.

Highs (Arya 7/10, Senn 9/10): Aryas are absolutely the brighter set, borderline sibilant depending on the song. I've heard the Senns described as bright, but I didn't find them to be overly bright in any context. I could probably listen to the Senns for hours comfortably, even with sharp percussion sounds. The Aryas can be slightly fatiguing after a while, even with an EQ. Definitely hurt some of the scores for the song ratings.

Imaging/Soundstage (Arya 8/10, Senn 10/10): Detail retrieval on either seems to be really good on both sets, with the edge to the Senns. The Senns also create a noticeable spatial feeling and image better. Depending on the track, certain sounds are more separated with them. This doesn't necessarily have to be a good thing but I find it nice to be able to isolate components of the music easily. I

Comfort (Arya 9/10, Senn 10/10): HD800s remains the most comfortable headphone I've tried. I don't have a ton of comparisons but I can't imagine any other set improve on comfort significantly. The Organics are comfortable in their own right for sure, but the headband will noticeably weigh on the top of your head after a while.

Notes: Quickly compared to my Ultrasone Pro 900s (used to be a decent EDM set 10 years ago) - they sound worse in pretty much every regard; no spatial feeling, almost muffled sounding vs either of the other pairs, but the bass presence is even greater than the Organics. I know that might not be a fair comparison since they are closed and the drivers are basically on your ears, but the truth is that they are very close to the bass quantity I'm looking for. Would love to be able to translate that quantity over to the Sennheisers and I think I'd have a close to ideal set.

Tracks used in comparison (I sampled a ton of songs, like 10x as big as this list, for technicalities and intricacies that would challenge the headphones a little more, but these were the ones I physically A to B'd back to back. I also only sampled songs I was very familiar with, so this list gives you insight into my music taste pretty well ):

EDM - Winner: Arya
I Remember - Deadmau5: Arya (8/10), Senn (7/10)
Firestone - Kygo: Arya (8/10), Senn (8/10)
Breathe - The Prodigy: Arya (8/10), Senn (7/10)
The Great Divide (Seven Lions Remix) - Velvetine: Arya (9/10), Senn (7/10)
Innocence - Nero: Arya (8/10), Senn (6/10)
I Admit It - Zhu: Arya (9/10), Senn (8/10)
The Deep - Lane 8: Arya (7/10), Senn (8/10)
Heavier - Odesza: Arya (8/10), Senn (8/10)
Quicksand - Above and Beyond: Arya (9/10), Senn (8/10)

Alternative Rock/Pop - Winner: Sennheiser
Amber - 311: Arya (8/10), Senn (8/10)
Dig - Incubus: Arya (7/10), Senn (8/10)
Kings and Queens - Thirty Seconds to Mars: Arya (7/10), Senn (8/10)
Ocean Avenue - Yellowcard: Arya (8/10), Senn (9/10)
The Mother We Share - Churches: Arya (8/10), Senn (8/10)
Dog Days Are Over - Florence and the Machine: Arya (8/10), Senn (9/10)

Classic Rock - Winner: Sennheiser
Fade to Black - Metallica: Arya (7/10), Senn (8/10)
Another One Bites the Dust - Queen: Arya (8/10), Senn (9/10)
Whole Lotta Love - Led Zeppelin: Arya (9/10), Senn (9/10)
La Grange - ZZ Top: Arya (9/10), Senn (9/10)
Wish You Were Here - Pink Floyd: Arya (8/10), Senn (9/10)
Hotel California - The Eagles: Arya (9/10), Senn (9/10)

Metal - Winner: Arya
Pneuma - Tool: Arya (9/10), Senn (8/10)
My Curse - Killswitch Engage: Arya (9/10), Senn (8/10)
Runaway - Linkin Park: Arya (7/10), Senn (7/10)
Rosemary - Deftones: Arya (8/10), Senn (8/10)

Orchestral - Winner: Sennheiser
Dona Nobis Pacem - Max Richter: Arya (8/10), Senn (10/10)
Only I Will Remain - Hans Zimmer: Arya (8/10), Senn (8/10)
Now We Are Free - Hans Zimmer: Arya (9/10), Senn (8/10)
The Mission (Gabriel's Oboe) Live - Ennio Morricone: Arya (10/10), Senn (10/10)
Amapola (Part 1) - Ennio Morricone: Arya (10/10), Senn (10/10)
A Small Measure of Peace - Hans Zimmer: Arya (9/10), Senn (10/10)
Duel of the Fates - John Williams: Arya (9/10), Senn (9/10)

Traditional Pop/Jazz - Winner: Sennheiser
Literally almost any Frank Sinatra Song - Arya (8/10), Senn (10/10)
Can't Help Falling in Love - Elvis Presley Arya (8/10), Senn (9/10)

Summary: Both are really effective and I think worth the price tag in the secondhand market (I paid $700 for the Senns and $780 for the organics). While they do have noticeable differences, I don't think they sound vastly different. Most of the distinctions I alluded to are somewhat subtle and would have been difficult for me to catch if I didn't have them both sitting on my desk at the same time. Regardless, based off of the differences my untrained ear could detect, my recommendation would be this: If you don't listen to bass heavy music or don't care about strong bass presence, Senns all day. They make songs effortless to listen to and offer incredible wearing comfort as well. If you want something with a little more energy on both ends of the frequency spectrum, then the Arya's are a lot of fun. I know that's likely not as definitive as most people would hope, and no one really likes to hear, 
"it depends", as an answer, but it's also the answer I agree with the most. Your music preference will dictate which headphone will likely be most suited for you. Ultimately I think most people would probably be fine with only owning one of these sets, as each one is only slightly better than the other in most categories. In my case, I haven't quite decided if I'll get rid of one or the other. I think for now I may just take advantage of having them both and embrace how fortunate I am to get to experience these two awesome pieces of engineering

Disclaimers:

1. I don't claim to be an expert in any of this
2. I don't believe I have the best equipment to test things to their full capacity
3. I know I'm not the first to say any of this or conduct this experiment
4. All comparisons made post Oratory EQ for the respective headphones, with minor adjustments made for my preferences

With all of that said, I'm just providing another data point in headphone comparison space, so hopefully someone finds it useful/helpful.

 

[Reactcore]

Have you considered changing the HD800 pads? I have the leather ones from here:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001376161726.html

The bass reaches deeper due to the increased cup volume by being thicker cushions.

Im a long time hd800 (non S) user and when driven right they can have skull shaking ultra deep sub bass. Not boomy or too much but very well controlled that i can even feel in my stomach without having to pump the volume.

Before having my modified Dave i used a Questyle current mode dac/amp which has been said the engineer developed due to wanting to get the most out of his HD800.

I still have the entry model CMA400i which, other than volume overhead, sounded the same as its bigger brother the Twelve at the time. Now they are some generations further and should be improved. I would suggest to try one of those.

 

[Philimon]

Hey everyone, now that I've had the Organics for a week, here is a little head to head matchup with my Sennheisers and a breakdown of how each performed in important categories:








Lows (Arya 8/10, Senn 6/10): The entire reason I bought the Aryas was because of the seemingly general consus that their bass was robust while maintaining a large portion of the clarity and accuracy the Senns provided. While the Arya's bass is noticeably better than the Senns, it doesn't reproduce the impact and energy I'm quite looking for in a set. Still, I imagine many open backs can't produce the quantity they can, so I'm not necessarily dissapointed. The Senns however did ultiamtely dissapoint me in terms of the low end. It's accurate but in many of the song ratings below, I found that the underwhelming bass presence was the reason the Senns didn't score higher.

Mids (Arya 8/10, Senn 9/10): The mid frequencies are typically more soothing with the Senns. I never found them to be distracting and are balanced well with the rest of the spectrum.

Highs (Arya 7/10, Senn 9/10): Aryas are absolutely the brighter set, borderline sibilant depending on the song. I've heard the Senns described as bright, but I didn't find them to be overly bright in any context. I could probably listen to the Senns for hours comfortably, even with sharp percussion sounds. The Aryas can be slightly fatiguing after a while, even with an EQ. Definitely hurt some of the scores for the song ratings.

Imaging/Soundstage (Arya 8/10, Senn 10/10): Detail retrieval on either seems to be really good on both sets, with the edge to the Senns. The Senns also create a noticeable spatial feeling and image better. Depending on the track, certain sounds are more separated with them. This doesn't necessarily have to be a good thing but I find it nice to be able to isolate components of the music easily. I

Comfort (Arya 9/10, Senn 10/10): HD800s remains the most comfortable headphone I've tried. I don't have a ton of comparisons but I can't imagine any other set improve on comfort signficantly. The Organics are comfortable in their own right for sure, but the headband will noticeably weigh on the top of your head after a while.

Notes: Quickly compared to my Ultrasone Pro 900s (used to be a decent EDM set 10 years ago) - they sound worse in pretty much every regard; no spatial feeling, almost muffled sounding vs either of the other pairs, but the bass presence is even greater than the Organics. I know that might not be a fair comparison since they are closed and the drivers are basically on your ears, but the truth is that they are very close to the bass quantity I'm looking for. Would love to be able to translate that quantity over to the Sennheisers and I think I'd have a close to ideal set.

Tracks used in comparison (I sampled a ton of songs, like 10x as big as this list, for technicalities and intricacies that would challenge the headphones a little more, but these were the ones I physically A to B'd back to back. I also only sampled songs I was very familiar with, so this list gives you insight into my music taste pretty well ):

EDM - Winner: Arya
I Remember - Deadmau5: Arya (8/10), Senn (7/10)
Firestone - Kygo: Arya (8/10), Senn (8/10)
Breathe - The Prodigy: Arya (8/10), Senn (7/10)
The Great Divide (Seven Lions Remix) - Velvetine: Arya (9/10), Senn (7/10)
Innocence - Nero: Arya (8/10), Senn (6/10)
I Admit It - Zhu: Arya (9/10), Senn (8/10)
The Deep - Lane 8: Arya (7/10), Senn (8/10)
Heavier - Odesza: Arya (8/10), Senn (8/10)
Quicksand - Above and Beyond: Arya (9/10), Senn (8/10)

Alternative Rock/Pop - Winner: Sennheiser
Amber - 311: Arya (8/10), Senn (8/10)
Dig - Incubus: Arya (7/10), Senn (8/10)
Kings and Queens - Thirty Seconds to Mars: Arya (7/10), Senn (8/10)
Ocean Avenue - Yellowcard: Arya (8/10), Senn (9/10)
The Mother We Share - Churches: Arya (8/10), Senn (8/10)
Dog Days Are Over - Florence and the Machine: Arya (8/10), Senn (9/10)

Classic Rock - Winner: Sennheiser
Fade to Black - Metallica: Arya (7/10), Senn (8/10)
Another One Bites the Dust - Queen: Arya (8/10), Senn (9/10)
Whole Lotta Love - Led Zeppelin: Arya (9/10), Senn (9/10)
La Grange - ZZ Top: Arya (9/10), Senn (9/10)
Wish You Were Here - Pink Floyd: Arya (8/10), Senn (9/10)
Hotel California - The Eagles: Arya (9/10), Senn (9/10)

Metal - Winner: Arya
Pneuma - Tool: Arya (9/10), Senn (8/10)
My Curse - Killswitch Engage: Arya (9/10), Senn (8/10)
Runaway - Linkin Park: Arya (7/10), Senn (7/10)
Rosemary - Deftones: Arya (8/10), Senn (8/10)

Orchestral - Winner: Sennheiser
Dona Nobis Pacem - Max Richter: Arya (8/10), Senn (10/10)
Only I Will Remain - Hans Zimmer: Arya (8/10), Senn (8/10)
Now We Are Free - Hans Zimmer: Arya (9/10), Senn (8/10)
The Mission (Gabriel's Oboe) Live - Ennio Morricone: Arya (10/10), Senn (10/10)
Amapola (Part 1) - Ennio Morricone: Arya (10/10), Senn (10/10)
A Small Measure of Peace - Hans Zimmer: Arya (9/10), Senn (10/10)
Duel of the Fates - John Williams: Arya (9/10), Senn (9/10)

Traditional Pop/Jazz - Winner: Sennheiser
Literally almost any Frank Sinatra Song - Arya (8/10), Senn (10/10)
Can't Help Falling in Love - Elvis Presley Arya (8/10), Senn (9/10)

Summary: Both are really effective and I think worth the pricetag in the secondhand market (I paid $700 for the Senns and $780 for the organics). While they do have noticeable differences, I don't think they sound vastly different. Most of the distinctions I alluded to are somewhat subtle and would have been difficult for me to catch if I didn't have them both sitting on my desk at the same time. Regardless, based off of the differences my untrained ear could detect, my recommendation would be this: If you don't listen to bass heavy music or don't care about strong bass presence, Senns all day. They make songs effortless to listen to and offer incredible wearing comfort as well. If you want something with a little more energy on both ends of the frequency spectrum, then the Arya's are a lot of fun. I know that's likely not as definitive as most people would hope, and no one really likes to hear, 
"it depends", as an answer, but it's also the answer I agree with the most. Your music preference will dictate which headphone will likely be most suited for you. Ultimately I think most people would probably be fine with only owning one of these sets, as each one is only slightly better than the other in most categories. In my case, I haven't quite decided if I'll get rid of one or the other. I think for now I may just take advantage of having them both and embrace how fortunate I am to get to experience these two awesome pieces of engineering

Disclaimers:

1. I don't claim to be an expert in any of this
2. I don't believe I have the best equipment to test things to their full capacity
3. I know I'm not the first to say any of this or conduct this experiment
4. All comparisons made post Oratory EQ for the respective headphones, with minor adjustments made for my preferences

With all of that said, I'm just providing another data point in headphone comparison space, so hopefully someone finds it useful/helpful.

Great review, thanks!

Your impressions of the HFM’s bass was my expectation based on your earlier comments. In my limited experience, planars cant do bass quite as well as flex-surround dynamic drivers for various reasons in my estimation… Assuming totl (expensive) planars could match TH900’s bass you’d still have to contend with planar’s massive physical weight.

I dont remember if you said you had tried Focal. Ive avoided Focal because Ive heard too many tales about driver failures (something about voice coil detaching from diaphragm), but based on what Ive read, Utopia is where I would look for powerhouse bass + detail if I had the budget to take on such risk.

Good luck!

 

[alecenriquez]

Have you considered changing the HD800 pads? I have the leather ones from here:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001376161726.html

The bass reaches deeper due to the increased cup volume by being thicker cushions.

Im a long time hd800 (non S) user and when driven right they can have skull shaking ultra deep sub bass. Not boomy or too much but very well controlled that i can even feel in my stomach without having to pump the volume.

Before having my modified Dave i used a Questyle current mode dac/amp which has been said the engineer developed due to wanting to get the most out of his HD800.

I still have the entry model CMA400i which, other than volume overhead, sounded the same as its bigger brother the Twelve at the time. Now they are some generations further and should be improved. I would suggest to try one of those.

I was actually looking at the ZMF lambskin pads for the Aryas, but maybe I'll try out a different set for the HD800s as well. Just a heads up though, that link isn't working for me. Do you have a name for those particular pads? I know ZMF and Dekoni are the more popular brands for this set, so I'd be curious to try each of those.

Great review, thanks!

Your impressions of the HFM’s bass was my expectation based on your earlier comments. In my limited experience, planars cant do bass quite as well as flex-surround dynamic drivers for various reasons in my estimation… Assuming totl (expensive) planars could match TH900’s bass you’d still have to contend with planar’s massive physical weight.

I dont remember if you said you had tried Focal. Ive avoided Focal because Ive heard too many tales about driver failures (something about voice coil detaching from diaphragm), but based on what Ive read, Utopia is where I would look for powerhouse bass + detail if I had the budget to take on such risk.

Good luck!

I haven't tried Focal, but I would be curious to get my hands on a set.

I think my next pick up and/or trial will be the Th900mk2