9V Charge Controller?
Jun 1, 2010 at 3:21 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 9

untrueparadox

100+ Head-Fier
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Posts
169
Likes
10
Does one of these exist prebuilt or predesigned? I'm looking for one to embed into a CMoy amp that will charge a NiMH 9V battery. Google doesn't help much and I really don't want to mod a $25 charger and carry that in my Altoid tin.
 
I'm trying to avoid using trickle charging that takes almost a full 24 hour day to recharge a battery. Something that would allow me to do rapid or semi rapid charging. And also, something that would kill off the power if the voltage drops below a safe place for the battery.
 
And how does Li-Ion batteries sound? I can switch the opamp chip to one that requires 11v instead of 9v and string 3 li-ion batteries from smaller cell phones and make a 3.7x3 = 12v?
 
Thanks.
 
Jun 1, 2010 at 3:47 AM Post #2 of 9
Li-Ion are not as safe to DIY as NiMH, hence why you don't see them much around here. The charging has to be done just right or things light on fire.
 
This thread may be relevant to your interests: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/101943/standard-lm317-charger-for-9v-nimh-batteries
 
That one lists a 13-hour charge time, which isn't too terribly bad. Anything above that would probably require more active control and hence more components, to the point where it might not fit well into your tin or would require building your own boards. I couldn't find much info on DIY quick chargers for 9V but I'm sure it's out there somewhere.
 
Jun 1, 2010 at 4:15 AM Post #3 of 9
I work on 500V tube amps but would never DIY a Lithium ion battery charger, they are like little bombs, especially a 9V.  Why don't you just buy a prober charger and plug it in to that?  You could DIY the connections but thats as far as I would go.
 
Jun 1, 2010 at 11:48 AM Post #4 of 9
I don't think that li-ion and li-po is so dangerous. I have used them in many portable devices and rc-toys.
Single cell batteries are very easy to use. You juse must use a constant voltage (4.2v)/constant current charger like this or use a special IC for it.

The second rule is not to overdischarge them bellow 3v, you also may use a special IC

The multicell batteries reqired a special charger with balancing circuit. It's more easy to buy it. For example this one - HobbyKing ECO6, which is really cheap 19$
 
Jun 1, 2010 at 12:11 PM Post #5 of 9
9V NiMH cells are small, so fast-charging them causes them more damage than with larger cells.  It's a matter of heat and surface area.  (Larger cells take a lot more damage under fast charge than trickle charge, too.)  Every 9V NiMH datasheet I've seen recommends against fast charging; sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly by only talking about "0.1C" charge rates.
 
Yes, I'm aware that 9V NiMH fast chargers exist. I'm also aware that there are aftermarket parts that let you redesign your car's engine to get more horsepower. In both cases, if you break something, you get to keep both pieces.
 
If this still doesn't deter you, the MC33340 can, in principle. work for this. See figure 12.
 
I've thought about designing a 9V charge controller.  Its primary purpose would be to get around one big limitation of the MC3334x, which is that the longest time-based cutoff you can set with it is less than 5 hours.  A proper 9V aware charge controller would let you use it with trickle charging, so would let you set 14+ hours, yet still provide -ΔV charge termination.  Maybe temperature, too.  Don't hold your breath waiting for it.
 
Jun 1, 2010 at 10:31 PM Post #6 of 9
I see. I never knew it was harmful to the battery to do rapid charging. Which trickle charge design do you recommend then?
 
Also, what battery holds the most charge? I've seen brand name ones like Duracell and Energizer with only 175mah and Chinese stuff that claim 300mah in the same size. There's even one of 350mah made of Li-Ion that's shaped like a 9v and claims to be able to charge using standard NiMH chargers.
 
Also, the guide the previous poster linked to mentions a 14v DC source. Is it possible that I can run the amp and recharge using the same plug or will I need a separate one?
 
Jun 2, 2010 at 12:57 AM Post #7 of 9
Quote:
I never knew it was harmful to the battery to do rapid charging.


Well, everything is harmful to a battery, eventually. :)  It's a matter of tradeoffs.
 
The last numbers I saw on the fast vs trickle thing were 100 charge cycles if done fast, 500 if done slow. Now ignore for a sec all the other details, like the exact battery design, how fast "fast" is, etc. Consider simply that charging fast might save you hundreds of hours a year and the cost is, say, $20 over that time for the extra cells you have to buy.  It'd be worth fast charging in that case.
 
I don't know what the numbers on 9Vs are. Maybe it's something horrific like 10 charge cycles if done "fast" (again, not bothering to put an exact value on that term) instead of hundreds. In that case, you might be content to let them charge overnight.
 
Just one example of another thing that will hurt NiMHs is trickle charging too long. This is why a smart charge controller can still be useful even when trickle charging.
 
The last numbers I saw on this, though, was that trickle charging for up to 30 days was OK. Probably that's optimistic and probably it doesn't apply to all NiMH battery designs, but what if you decide you'll never let a battery cook for more than, say, two days when it really only needs half a day to charge? Well then, you might decide we don't care about intelligent charge termination, as I did for the PIMETA v2.
 
 
Quote:
Which trickle charge design do you recommend then?

 
The PIMETA v2's trickle charger is documented here.
 
 
Quote:
what battery holds the most charge?

 
The mAh numbers you find are fairly reliable. You might find some that stretch the truth by maybe 10%, but that's nothing in a field where, as you've found, values already vary by over 100%. Your 350 mAh number for a LiIon "9V" is low, actually: I have one here that claims 500 mAh, and testing backs that up.
 
There are lots of other factors to consider when choosing a battery.
 
In the case of LiIon, they're dangerous if charged improperly, and charging properly isn't as easy as with nickel chemistries, so many DIYers -- including myself -- don't DIY chargers for them. I only have one headphone amp that runs on a 9V LiIon, and it charges outside the amp on a professionally designed charger. That way, even if the battery explodes, it's less likely to cause damage than if it's inside the amp.
 
Another big factor is terminal voltage: no "9V" battery is actually 9.0000 volts, not even alkalines. And, all of them drop in terminal voltage nonlinearly over time as they're depleted, they don't stay at one particular voltage the entire time. That can affect useful life just as much as mAh, especially at low voltages like these. I have an article on that topic here.
 
Another factor to consider is reliability. Some cell designs will put up with a lot more abuse than others. I have little to say on this topic because I don't go through nearly enough NiMHs in a year to gain any kind of long-term sense of reliability. In general, lower mAh numbers are likely to correlate better with longevity, because it means they're not pushing the design limits as hard. That's not to say that high-mAh long-life batteries don't exist, but I'd expect them to be pricey.
 
Quote:
Is it possible that I can run the amp and recharge using the same plug or will I need a separate one?

 
Yes. Again I refer you to the PIMETA v2's power supply design.  There's an entire section of the docs on it, here, much of which goes into battery issues.
 
Jun 2, 2010 at 5:25 PM Post #8 of 9
I read through the two pages of documentations but it's quite hard for me to understand most of it coming from a background without electrical engineering knowledge. Can you explain or give me a diagram on how to circuit looks like and what I would need to buy? I'm gonna use a Energizer 170mah battery since the nominal voltage seems to be much higher than the ones with bigger cells and it should power the amp better according to the article.
 
My original board is the CMoyBB and I haven't done the DC jack on the board yet. I just used a short in place of the jack as instructed by the hacks page on the website that sold it.
 
Jun 2, 2010 at 9:25 PM Post #9 of 9
D1, D2, IC1 and RCCS
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top