[Culverin]

Hi there,
Longtime amateur audiophile, 
Both my amps are dead  :? 
 
Scenario #1: Seated w/ Headphones - Gaming, music while I work from home and YouTube
Scenario #2: 4 speakers in kitchen and dining room.
95% of my listening is via headphones.  Both scenarios are required.  But audio quality definitely weighted towards headphones.
 
 
Headphones are AKG-702 (and sometimes Beyerdynamic DT-990).
 
 
This is my setup:
FLAC > Foobar2000 > Asus Sabertooth > ???? amp > AKG-702
 
My primary amp was a Kenwood KR-6600
The headphone signal wasn't super clean, I can hear a touch of static, but overall, it sounds the best.
Then my cat puked on it.  ARGH.
It needs a cleaning + source dial connection fixed.
 
 
The backup I've been using for the past few months is a Sherwood AD-2210 CP
Last week, the right channel crapped out completely out of the blue
It's dead for both the headphone jack and the speakers.
 
I also have a Kenwood KA-3500 on loan to a friend.
Though I would prefer to leave it with them.
 
 
As each pair of headphones/speakers are different,
I want an amp where I can control the bass/treble and boost (sacrilegious?)
 
 
As the AKG-702 are rather clinical, I prefer to compensate with more bass-heavy coloring.
And I don't want to disturb my tenants with bass when on speakers.
I'm hoping you guys can advise me on my options.
 
Finances are limited.
There is a local shop that can assess repair for $60, but I have no idea what the final cost may be.  Pure Sound 
 
 

Am I just better off buying a second KA-3500 for my purposes? http://www.iavscanada.com/product/kenwood-ka-3500-integrated-amplifier-3/
Should I scour the listings here and bide my time?
Or is there something new with warrant that suits my needs?

No idea where to start, hoping you guys can help out.
Thanks!!!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Culverin /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Headphones are AKG-702 (and sometimes Beyerdynamic DT-990).

 

My primary amp was a Kenwood KR-6600

The headphone signal wasn't super clean, I can hear a touch of static, but overall, it sounds the best.

 

The backup I've been using for the past few months is a Sherwood AD-2210 CP
 

I also have a Kenwood KA-3500 on loan to a friend.

 

As each pair of headphones/speakers are different,

I want an amp where I can control the bass/treble and boost (sacrilegious?)

 

As the AKG-702 are rather clinical, I prefer to compensate with more bass-heavy coloring.

 

Do the K702 and DT-990 sound drastically different? If they do it's less a matter of the K702 being "clinical" (as erroneous as the term may be it would be more applicable with the K701, as its bass response drops off too early) and not necessarily something that can be solved by tone controls, but because you are using two speaker amplifiers to drive a low impedance load like that AKG. Such speaker amps have a tendency to have a very high output impedance on the headphone output because somehow speaker amp engineers didn't get the memo that Grados have existed for decades, plus those AKGs (K400, K500, K501, K701, K702, K712). A high output impedance amp driving a low impedance load loses damping factor, and can either boost bass or reduce bass (the latter is what you're getting), but either way the bass notes would have a tendency to be inarticulate.

Tone controls aren't going to be much help either since you're working with lower damping factor. That means less control over driver movement - basically think of this like putting the shocks and tyre compound from a Toyota sedan on a tail-happy Porsche 911, and tone control at this point is like adding a turbo to reduce your laptimes as opposed to putting actual 911 GT3 suspension parts on it.

 

Either way, what source are you using? If you're using a computer (or even a smartphone) using a distortion free, high enough (note there's a limit on how useful that is) damping factor amplifier will allow you to just use software EQ with some headroom before it starts causing issues.

 

At the same time as much as there are some similarities in the response curve of the K702 and DT880, do you really like the AKG? Because if not then might as well sell it to fund the repair of the amps (which might not have any trouble with the DT880 hence you won't need to buy a headphone amp) rather than penny pinching hoping to make the K702 into something it isn't. If what you're after is the more expansive soundstage for gaming, might as well use a soundcard with virtual surround to drive the DT880.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Culverin /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Scenario #1: Seated w/ Headphones - Gaming, music while I work from home and YouTube
Scenario #2: 4 speakers in kitchen and dining room.
95% of my listening is via headphones.  Both scenarios are required.  But audio quality definitely weighted towards headphones.

 

Are they using the same source?

One big problem really is that if 95% of your listening is with headphones then assuming you'll keep the K702 then it comes down to getting a headphone amplifier to eliminate not just the noise and static - which at this point we don't know if it's totally just from wear and tear on those old amps (or due to some design flaw in the headphone driver circuit), much less if this can be fixed - but to drive the K702 properly.

 

But the thing is if you need to drive those four speakers also then either you get the amp fixed to do so, or you invest in a headphone amp and then get a fairly decent but affordable Class D amplifier for each pair of speakers.

 

Which brings me to anothe concern - are you driving the two pairs of speakers simultaneously? How? The Kenwood has only Speaker A and B, not four physical channels. if you hooked up two speakers to each terminal or somehow make them run at the same time despite being hooked up to the respective A or B speaker output, you're running the speakers in parallel, presenting a load that is the average of the nominal impedance of both speakers. If they're both 8ohms the amp is seeing a 4ohm continuous load. That could have contributed to the problems on the amp.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Culverin /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Am I just better off buying a second KA-3500 for my purposes? http://www.iavscanada.com/product/kenwood-ka-3500-integrated-amplifier-3/
Should I scour the listings here and bide my time?
Or is there something new with warrant that suits my needs?

 

If only 5% of your listening is on the speakers, and on top of which this is more for ambient rather than critical listening (ie they're in the kitchen and dining room), you might as well just get an affordable speaker amp to drive each, and then a decent headphone amplifier. 

 

You can get the Schiit Modi2 Uber+Vali2 (the optical input on the Modi2 Uber will be compatible with any PCI soundcard with SPDIF output, that way you can utilize the DSP for gaming), and then get two $30 T-amps for each of the speaker pairs. Spend a bit more and you can get BT adapters for each. These are for ambient listening anyway, might as well make them convenient and use your smartphone as a source for those.

 

 

 

 

[Culverin]

 

Are they using the same source?

One big problem really is that if 95% of your listening is with headphones then assuming you'll keep the K702 then it comes down to getting a headphone amplifier to eliminate not just the noise and static - which at this point we don't know if it's totally just from wear and tear on those old amps (or due to some design flaw in the headphone driver circuit), much less if this can be fixed - but to drive the K702 properly.

 

 
Yes sir, single source.  Bachelor style living here.
Everything is stored on my PC with the on-board soundcard.
Asus X-58, Realtek ALC 892.
 
I have an Auzen X-Fi Prelude 7.1 soundcard in storage,
will be swapping that back in around Christmas when I do my new PC build.
 
 
 
 
 

 

 

Do the K702 and DT-990 sound drastically different? If they do it's less a matter of the K702 being "clinical" (as erroneous as the term may be it would be more applicable with the K701, as its bass response drops off too early) and not necessarily something that can be solved by tone controls, but because you are using two speaker amplifiers to drive a low impedance load like that AKG. Such speaker amps have a tendency to have a very high output impedance on the headphone output because somehow speaker amp engineers didn't get the memo that Grados have existed for decades, plus those AKGs (K400, K500, K501, K701, K702, K712). A high output impedance amp driving a low impedance load loses damping factor, and can either boost bass or reduce bass (the latter is what you're getting), but either way the bass notes would have a tendency to be inarticulate.

Tone controls aren't going to be much help either since you're working with lower damping factor. That means less control over driver movement - basically think of this like putting the shocks and tyre compound from a Toyota sedan on a tail-happy Porsche 911, and tone control at this point is like adding a turbo to reduce your laptimes as opposed to putting actual 911 GT3 suspension parts on it.

 

Either way, what source are you using? If you're using a computer (or even a smartphone) using a distortion free, high enough (note there's a limit on how useful that is) damping factor amplifier will allow you to just use software EQ with some headroom before it starts causing issues.

 

At the same time as much as there are some similarities in the response curve of the K702 and DT880, do you really like the AKG? Because if not then might as well sell it to fund the repair of the amps (which might not have any trouble with the DT880 hence you won't need to buy a headphone amp) rather than penny pinching hoping to make the K702 into something it isn't. If what you're after is the more expansive soundstage for gaming, might as well use a soundcard with virtual surround to drive the DT880.

 
Wow.  I must admit, I'm actually a touch lost here.
I would classify me as a very good listener.  Everything sounds different to me.  I did a lot of violin growing up, so I'm sensitive to how it sounds/feels, but I can't always articulate it.
So when you say "drastically different", I just don't have the experience to know what what similar would be, or what kinda different vs drastically different would sound like.

I'll try to answer to the best of my abilities.
 
Beyerdynamic DT990
warm color = I like
Expansive bass = I like (that speaker like "boom" vs the less wide sounding K702.)  IEMs (Westone and Earsonic) seemed to have REALLY tight bass, but it also didn't seem as "big" as dynamic drivers?  Is that just a factor of moving more air?
Highs are sibilant.  As I got more listening in over the years, I found highs on the DT990 just a bit too sharp for my ears.
I'm not sure if it's more accurate?  But I'm pretty much strapped to my headphones for many hours at a time.  I found that sharpness fatiguing.
 
AKG K702
Comfortable = I like
Soundstage > DT990
Mids and lower mids sound way more accurate than the DT990
Highs are pleasant
Bass has neither the thump or the expansive soundstage without coloring it with my amps (bass boost, loudness and dialing the bass lvls up to 6-7).
But overall, they are very much preferred.
 
 
You have sort of lost me on the impedance/amp/tone controls....
 
I used the Kenwood

KR-6600 as my primar....  but when that died.... *grumble*
I swapped back to my Sherwood.
 
 
 
To sum up.

Scenario A - at my desk
95% of time:  Gaming, music, daily driving
FLAC -> Computer (onboard) -> Amp ??? -> Headphones
 
Scenario B - at my desk
1% of time: Watching a movie, or wandering around my room while listening
FLAC -> Computer (onboard) -> Amp ??? -> 2 speakers
 
Scenario C- Kitchen/Dining Room
4% of time: Cooking, Background music when guests over 
FLAC -> Computer (onboard) -> Amp ??? -> 4 speakers
 
 
The amp has been the same previously in all 3 scenarios.
If we go with multiple amps, then we will need to account for a channel switch as well???
 
 
I've followed most of your questions, but if you have any more that can help narrow down your advice, please do ask away

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
Wow.  I must admit, I'm actually a touch lost here.
I would classify me as a very good listener.  Everything sounds different to me.  I did a lot of violin growing up, so I'm sensitive to how it sounds/feels, but I can't always articulate it.
So when you say "drastically different", I just don't have the experience to know what what similar would be, or what kinda different vs drastically different would sound like.

 
If the AKG sounds totally like a tin can overall or at the low end while the DT990 sounds like music, when the AKG shouldn't be that drastically different, then that means there's definitely an issue with the output impedance. That said, if it's the opposite it'll be harder to tell if there is or isn't - this kind of impedance issue has a tendency to go either way, ie a tin can or slightly bloated bass.
 
 

 
Beyerdynamic DT990
warm color = I like
Expansive bass = I like (that speaker like "boom" vs the less wide sounding K702.)  IEMs (Westone and Earsonic) seemed to have REALLY tight bass, but it also didn't seem as "big" as dynamic drivers?  Is that just a factor of moving more air?
Highs are sibilant.  As I got more listening in over the years, I found highs on the DT990 just a bit too sharp for my ears.
I'm not sure if it's more accurate?  But I'm pretty much strapped to my headphones for many hours at a time.  I found that sharpness fatiguing.

 
DT990 has boosted lower midrange and upper bass making for that generally warm tone as well as that added "boom" vs the IEMs, but it also has tall peaks in the treble which makes for that sharpness.
 
 

 
AKG K702
Comfortable = I like
Soundstage > DT990
Mids and lower mids sound way more accurate than the DT990
Highs are pleasant
Bass has neither the thump or the expansive soundstage without coloring it with my amps (bass boost, loudness and dialing the bass lvls up to 6-7).
But overall, they are very much preferred.

 
Still not easy to tell if there's an impedance issue but below 1000hz my ears can barely tell the difference between the K702 and HD600. It's above that where the differences are - HD600 has slightly "shouty" midrange if at least vs the AKGs, which position the vocals farther away and the soundstage is deeper.
 
 

  You have sort of lost me on the impedance/amp/tone controls....

 
I mean if there is distortion in the first place using tone controls will just put you deeper into the distortion zone. The car example means that having a Porsche 911 with an arse-heavy weight distribution is an inherent issue, distortion is putting a Toyota sedan's suspension and tyres on it which means it has less capability to handle its engine as it is, tone controls will be like trying to get faster lap times by swapping in the 911 Turbo engine which of course ends up making the handling issue even worse, as opposed to putting in a proper GT3-spec suspension and tyres on it so it will handle like a 911 GT3 as opposed to a 911 with a Toyota sedan's suspension system.
 
 

   
Yes sir, single source.  Bachelor style living here.
Everything is stored on my PC with the on-board soundcard.
Asus X-58, Realtek ALC 892.
 
I have an Auzen X-Fi Prelude 7.1 soundcard in storage,
will be swapping that back in around Christmas when I do my new PC build.
---
I used the Kenwood 

KR-6600 as my primar....  but when that died.... *grumble*
I swapped back to my Sherwood.
 
 
To sum up.

Scenario A - at my desk
95% of time:  Gaming, music, daily driving
FLAC -> Computer (onboard) -> Amp ??? -> Headphones
 
Scenario B - at my desk
1% of time: Watching a movie, or wandering around my room while listening
FLAC -> Computer (onboard) -> Amp ??? -> 2 speakers
 
Scenario C- Kitchen/Dining Room
4% of time: Cooking, Background music when guests over 
FLAC -> Computer (onboard) -> Amp ??? -> 4 speakers
 
 
The amp has been the same previously in all 3 scenarios.
If we go with multiple amps, then we will need to account for a channel switch as well???

 
 
If listening with that PC is 95% of your use you might as well dedicate a large chunk of what you can spend on the headphone amp, then just get a BT-capable amp to drive the speakers when you're using the 1% and 4% scenarios. You can swap out which pair it's connected to rather than have two. Either way the BT function lets you use your smartphone.
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dta-1w-class-t-wireless-mini-amplifier-system--300-382