[id109]

I started another thread on here recently asking about sound cards vs DACs.
I'd actually reached the decision of getting a sound card but then after discussing things with a couple of friends, I actually decided to go the other way, deciding that computer > DAC > amp would better suit my needs.

At first I'd thought of getting everything at once but after due consideration, I'd rather take my time and invest in things a bit more.
This means buying in stages, which isn't ideal but sadly is necessary.

Anyway, first things first is the DAC.
The weakest point of my current set-up is getting the sound out of the computer. I have a not-bad Denon stereo I can plug the DAC into and I'm sure that change alone will result in a drastic increase in sound quality. Then, later on, I will replace the stereo with a decent amp and speakers set-up to make the most of the DAC and my current re-ripping-to-FLAC campaign in my spare time.


Anyway, the title of the thread says it all.
I'm after a USB DAC up to about $500 in price ($600 even if there's something that really warrants the extra money). I'm in the UK, so we're really talking £250-300 but I figured a lot of people on here are from the US, so it's easier to quote dollar prices.



And while I'm here, I have a couple of other questions.

Most (all?) DAC-amp connections are RCA/phono, aren't they? Is there really nothing better out there?
I mean, phono connectors seem, to me anyway, to be so out-dated, I find it strange that something better hasn't come along.

Also, sticking with cabling, will any standard USB cable do to connect the DAC to mu computer, or are there 'specialist' or 'high quality' cables I should use instead?

And one last question, will I get better results buying an entire system from one manufacturer? DAC, amp, speakers, interconnects, the works.
Or should I mix and match?


And I'd just like to say, in advance, a huge thank you to anyone brave enough to try and help me.
Ta.

 

[sejarzo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by id109 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Most (all?) DAC-amp connections are RCA/phono, aren't they? Is there really nothing better out there? I mean, phono connectors seem, to me anyway, to be so out-dated, I find it strange that something better hasn't come along.

Well, exactly what do you think is lacking in an RCA connection--what does it not do well? What should be better?

All that is really needed is a secure signal connection, and the RCA design does allow a continuous shield over the entire signal conductors, or virtually so.

RCA's are not the theoretically best connector for digital transmission over coax, and while there is some disagreement as to the impact of imperfect impedance matching for S/PDIF connections, a lot of great sounding audiophile and pro studio gear uses RCA's rather than BNC's or some other "preferable" connector.

But in the audio frequency range, what could be more simple or effective?

 

[id109]

It just strikes me as very old-fashioned.
I know that's not necessarily a bad thing but I was wondering if there were any other connections that I was unaware of that were supposedly better. I'm not sure exactly how, which is why I asked the question.

I wasn't trying to upset anyone, it was just curiosity on my part.

 

[id109]

Please, is there no-one has any recommendations?

I'm sorry if I caused offence by asking if there were any alternatives to RCA connections, but if I didn't ask, how would I ever find out?
Which is why I'm asking for people to suggest DACs, because this isn't an area I'm familiar with, nor would I know where else to look to find out this sort of information.

I know, I sound like a newbie, which I am, which is why I've asked for help.
So if anyone who knows a bit more about this might take pity on me, I'd be eternally grateful.

 

[jriihi]

MHdtLab Paradisea+ ($559-$599 and can be found from ebay). Its NOS tube buffer dac with usb,coax,toslink input and rca output.

 

[izquierdaste]

I bought a used usb apogee mini-dac for $600 + shipping on audiogon. I've had a lot of dacs and this is the best value considering it has usb, full-asio (i.e. bit perfect with any software), balanced out, mini out, and 1/4 headphone amp. You can also listen to as many as three headphones at the same time with the mini-jack, the balanced out and the internal headamp. (Unfortunately the output level is different for each, so you may need another headamp.)

 

[sejarzo]

Sorry if you mistook my tone in my reply re RCA's. It's just that in the consumer audio world, well, that's all that exists for mono unbalanced signals, for the most part (pro-audio uses 1/4" TS plugs in some cases, but usually runs balanced with XLR connectors.) It would be next to impossible for a new DAC designer, for instance, to put a new "connector X" on unbalanced analog outputs........he'd only be creating a new market for "connector X-to-RCA adapters", because the users would have to be able to connect it to headamps with only RCA inputs, and they'd want to use existing cables, anyway!

I and many others here on Head-Fi and other forums are finding the E-MU 0404 USB to be an extremely good value. IMHO, it outperforms the Musical Fidelity 3.24 DAC which sells for $650 or so on the used market here in the states, and has the USB input and excellent ASIO drivers. With most "audiophile" DAC's outside of Apogee and Benchmark--which are really pro-audio gear more than audiophile--you would have to run a sound card with coax or TOSLINK output, or a USB-to-S/PDIF converter to use it in a computer-based system.

I just sold my Musical Fidelity CD-Pre24 for lack of use after getting the 0404 USB earlier this year. Given that you are in the UK, you might be more aware of the popularity and reputation of MF gear in the audiophile marketplace.....

The E-MU has a good following, and you shouldn't lose much on it should you buy it and then decide it's not good enough. I'm an engineer, so I always think of quality versus price considerations, and the 0404 USB has more value packed into it than virtually any other gear on the market.

 

[Orcin]

I am going through the same analysis right now. I want a USB DAC to go between my computer and my RSA Hornet for home use with my iTunes Apple Lossless music library. I will also want to run my CD changer through it via optical. I want it to be solid-state, with a separate power source (i.e. not USB-powered), and at least the two inputs mentioned above. My price range is US$300-400, but I would be willing to go a little higher for the right unit.

Here's the main candidates that I am considering so far in no particular order with approximate new retail prices:

Headroom MicroDAC $300
Musiland MD10 $300
DYIEDEN Great March 2 $330 (modified version from Pacific Valve)
M-Audio Audiophile USB $250

I haven't seen anything from $350-500 that offered a big advantage over these units.

The things that I don't yet understand that are holding me back from making a decision:

- what does a "bit-perfect" solution offer in terms of performance and can I get there with any of these units?

- will all of these units function well with native Windows XP USB drivers, or do I need special drivers? Ideally, I want to plug the DAC into a USB port, have the DAC take over as the primary sound device, and revert back to the sound card when I unplug the DAC at the end of my listening session. I believe the MicroDAC works this way, but I am not sure about the others.

- how well will these units "scale up" if I choose to add a home amp to the mix at a later date, relegating my Hornet to portable duty?

- what great unit at this price point am I missing?

Edit: I just saw the post above me, which prompts me to add this about the 0404USB. I have looked at this unit, but I don't understand how a $200 unit that has mixing capabilities, an amp, and is aimed at the musician market could be a better DAC than dedicated audio DAC's selling for $100 more. Maybe I am missing something here, but I don't need most of the features of the 0404USB (plus it is really ugly compared to the other units). Also, a lot of the discussion in the 0404USB threads revolves around asio drivers and it sounds pretty complicated to me. (Now maybe this is also why I don't understand what a bit-perfect solution is!) Whereas the units that I mention above all seem to be pretty much plug-and-play with Windows XP (but not bit-perfect?).

This might give you some ideas. I'm sorry if I hijacked your thread in any way, but my purpose was to possibly provoke some more suggestions and/or discussion that might help us both.

With regard to your questions:
1) more expensive cables would improve performance on a phono/mini connection
2) my understanding is that USB cables are pretty much all alike?
3) if you mix and match, you need to do a little more research to be sure they synergize well, but many people successfully combine products from multiple manufacturers

 

[id109]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm sorry if I hijacked your thread in any way...

Don't worry about it, the more the merrier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif With regard to your questions: 1) more expensive cables would improve performance on a phono/mini connection 2) my understanding is that USB cables are pretty much all alike?

Those two points seem mutually exclusive from where I am.
Surely if you can have differing qualities of audio interconnects, you can also have differing qualities of USB cable?

Sorry, that wasn't really aimed at you, more just a general point.
edit: kind of just answered my own question - link.



So, the consensus would be the E-MU 0404 USB?
It's a name that, now that I think about it, I've heard before, though I had never realised it was made by Creative. Then again, I suppose they do specialise in computer-based audio somewhat, so it's no surprise that they should be able to produce high-quality equipment for that purpose.

I've been recommended the Headroom Micro DAC by a friend too. I don't suppose anyone knows how the two compare?
In fact, I suppose what I'm asking is whether there's anything available for up to ~$500 that would be a substantial improvement over the E-MU 0404.



@serjarzo: no, I'm sorry, I think I was slightly paranoid.
I'm just in an area now where I don't really much, if anything (so, no, I'm not at all familiar with Musical Fidelity products, I'm afraid).

I mean, I'm fairly tech-savvy on the whole and generally find it pretty easy to pick up what I need to know. But with audio equipment, I've always felt just a little bit out-of-my-depth. I suppose it's the subjective nature of it, I don't find it all that 'comfortable' - just difficult for me to get a handle on really.

In essence, I just kind of need someone to tell me what to get, sad though that may seem.



Anyway, headphones aren't an issue, I'm not a headphone person.
The DAC will be connected up to an amp driving speakers, so headphone output and stuff like that isn't a concern really (though I do appreciate people taking the time to point out such features on things they've mentioned).

I assume it's worth getting some sort of dedicated power supply would be a good idea too? Are there any recommendations regarding that?
And interconnects, any favourites?

I mean, if I went for the E-MU 0404, that's a considerable amount I was saving over what I thought I was going to be spending, the extra can therefore go towards even better cabling and so on (and also reduce the amount of time I have to wait before I can afford to buy the amp and speakers...).



I'd just like to say thanks again to everyone whose helped so far.
I realise it can't be easy trying to advise someone in matters they're unfamiliar with. And looking back over this thread as I'm about to click submit, I can see what a mess it is, no clear train of thought, questions appearing almost out-of-the-blue, for which I am very sorry, I only hope someone can unravel them.

Thank you.

 

[mrarroyo]

Have you given any thought to the Scott Nixon's USB DAC. He even has one with a tube buffer.

 

[id109]

No.
I'd never even heard of Scott Nixon.

Which is a brilliant illustration as to why I need the help of you guys.

 

[vcoheda]

a corda aria would be something else to look into. it's a dac/amp all in one. can be had used for about $350ish.

 

[sejarzo]

Regarding the value of the 0404 USB:

One explanation that I have heard in stores, and read on Head-Fi in other threads, is that there is typically a huge difference in markup between "pro audio" and/or computer-based audio gear and "audiophile" gear.

It is incredibly expensive to get small-quantity milled aluminum faces, machined rear panels, and all that to make relatively few high-end audio pieces, compared to something similar in the pro-audio world, such as the Apogee Mini-DAC or the Benchmark DAC-1. The cases are far more "utilitarian" and volume of those sold is actually higher than probably any very high end consumer DAC, too.....so the R&D costs are spread out over more units.

You can find audiophile dealers that sell the Benchmark online, but state that they don't offer discounts because the mark-up is so small compared to the other gear they sell. Pro gear dealers also don't seem to discount it, though you can find Apogee gear at some discount (one engineer told me that probably more than half the music produced in the world is mastered through Apogee converters, so they have an edge when it comes to volume.)

My thinking is also changing about pro gear in general.....think about it, how upset is an artist going to be if something breaks, or there are driver problems in the middle of a session? That's time and money down the drain, and pro gear is built to be reliable AND sound good. I wish I could say the same thing for a number of the audiophile pieces I have owned in the past 31 years.

E-MU isn't really the pro-audio side of Creative, though there is a "Creative Professional" logo on E-MU gear.....it's more like the advanced amateur division. The case won't win any design awards, that's for sure......but I needed something lightweight that I would take on the road with my notebook and cans.....but then discovered it was much better than I ever thought it could be.

It is no problem at all to connect to a speaker rig, as it has a volume control on its output--unlike most audiophile DAC's that put out only a full line level signal. You don't need a preamp--you simply need a pair of interconnect cables (with 1/4" mono phone plugs on one end, RCA's on the other), a power amp or pair of monoblocks, or (heaven forbid!) a pair of Alesis or similar powered pro studio monitors--which already have power amps built in. You would have to determine the exact cabling required depending on how those were set up.....some take balanced signals via XLR connections.

I just sold my CDPre, an audiophile-oriented unit that retailed for $3000 about 4 years ago, because I didn't use it anymore......I listen to FLAC files via either my desktop or notebook into the 0404 USB and an external headamp with my HD600's, or run cables from the 0404 outputs to my monoblocks and speakers.

 

[Orcin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sejarzo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Regarding the value of the 0404 USB: It is incredibly expensive to get small-quantity milled aluminum faces, machined rear panels, and all that to make relatively few high-end audio pieces, compared to something similar in the pro-audio world, such as the Apogee Mini-DAC or the Benchmark DAC-1. The cases are far more "utilitarian" and volume of those sold is actually higher than probably any very high end consumer DAC, too.....so the R&D costs are spread out over more units.

This, along with the rest of your explanation and points, makes a lot of sense to me and I never thought about it that way. I also hadn't thought about using the volume-controlled line out to run powered speakers. This unit does have a lot of versatility, that's for sure.

I guess I need to add it to my list, which means it jumps up pretty high based on the price. If only it had one of those pricey machined cases for an additional $100 as an option...

 

[mrarroyo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by id109 /img/forum/go_quote.gif No. I'd never even heard of Scott Nixon. Which is a brilliant illustration as to why I need the help of you guys.

Ok, look at:

http://www.audioreview.com/USBTDcrx.aspx

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/nixon/tubedac.html