325s with Flats
May 3, 2010 at 4:47 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 14

Bilavideo

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The 325i must be the redheaded stepchild of the Grado lineup. I've never heard a Grado can take such a beating as this phone gets, particularly from its Jan-Brady sibling, the SR-225. In posting after posting, the 325 gets a beat-down from those who say its presentation is not just bright but shrill. Blame for this situation has repeatedly gone to the aluminum air chambers, which were supposedly too "cold," whether in comparison to the warmth of mahogany or the who-knows-what of molded plastic, including the molded plastic of the 225s.

Yes, aluminum was such a bad idea, at least until the release of the PS1000 and the "baby PS1000" - the HF2. But, say the critics, we're forgetting that these cans are "hybrids" with mahogany on the front end and aluminum on the back. Apparently, aluminum is not so cold if you bring your mahogany underwear.

So one wonders, then, why the PS1 and the HP-1000 weren't the proverbial witch's t*t in a brass bra. These cans had no mahogany underoos - yet they manage, year after year, to win the "Which Grados do I really wish I had" contest. If they don't come with a lumber wrap, what do they come with that makes them preferable to the much-maligned 325/325i/325is?

Maybe - and I'm just thinking out loud here - the problem isn't so much in the driver as it is in the pads. To be sure, those HP1000 drivers were different, and they're still a hot commodity, even decades later. But both these silver tanks also came in flats, not bowls. Why? Isn't it because the bowls practically give away the bass and afflict the presentation with a sicky sour tinniness? Unfortunately, Grado has made a habit of using the pads as part of its stair-step segmentation of the product line. Cheapskates get comfies. Spend a little money and you get some bowls. Spend a lot and you get the jumbos.

But should the pads be matched to a market niche or to the sound they're supposed to help sculpt? Grados, more than most headphones, are sensitive to differences in pads. If the flats emphasize the bass and restrain the HF, the bowls open up more HF (even with diminished bass). The jumbos take the HF dispersion that much further, in the name of soundstage. Their effect on bass is so pronounced, they only work with drivers tweaked to thump out as much bass as possible.

This is where the product lineup has created a euphonic mismatch. Having restricted the comfies to the bottom rungs, the 325s find themselves among a pack of Grados deemed worthy of the more open HF extension of the mid-Grados. If the 125 and 225 merit bowls, why not the 325? The answer lies in the way these headphones use their chambers to build a presentation. As the thinking goes, the SR60s have the least amount of "air support," so they get the warmth of comfies and a closer ear/driver distance. Until the latest update in the line-up, their successors - the SR80s - were the first to get the bowls. Now, you have to buy the 125s to be truly "bowl worthy." After giving the 125 and 225 bowls of their own, it must have made good marketing sense to apply that same logic to the 325s. On the other hand, the 125 and 225 are housed in plastic; the 325 comes wearing metal.

It's precisely this difference that explains why the 325 maybe should have worn flats, not high heels, to this particular ball. As occurred with the PS1 and HP-1000, the hard, metal, housing was better designed to aid quicker decay and improve speed. Unless it's designed to do otherwise, metal rings a bit more readily than wood or even plastic. Even without that ring, there's no added warmth or color to offset unimpeded HF. But the legendary metal monsters from yesteryear had a plan: They dressed in flats, which brought the ear closer to the driver and let it focus on the primary vibrations of the drivers, themselves, rather than the echoes of secondary waves after they've bounced all over the rest of the headphone apparatus.

Which leads me to suggest that 325s, heard in bowls, are not really 325s at all. The bowls were not the cushion of the old metal monsters. The only reason the HF2 comes in bowls, and the PS1000 comes in jumbos, is the warmth that comes from those mahogany panties. An argument can be made that Grado has retreated from the brilliance of the all-metal-and-flats presentation in an effort to embrace a hybrid compromise - and all so it can keep those overgrown jumbo pads. Grado wants its comfort. It wants a more polite approach. It wants that bigger soundstage. It has turned to wood as the means of offsetting the consequences of bowls and jumbos.

It was easy to see where things were going when the GS1000 was made the new Grado flagship. To get comfort and soundstage, Grado needed the jumbo G-cush megapads but it also had to tweak the bass, giving the GS1k a Westone 3-like EQ smile formed by combining thumping bass with emphasized highs. This had an effect on the trademark Grado mids, but that was the price of producing a "polite" soundstage. For many of the Grado faithful, this was the wrong direction. To this day, there are many who argue that the RS-1 was the true flagship - and remains as much. Now that the GS1k has been pushed to the side by the PS1k, it's getting dumped on by the RS1 loyalists and the PS1k upgraders.

Ironically, this is exactly the moment when a return to flats is needed, particularly by the 325 whose metal body is the closest to the HP1k of any Grados in production. There's still an arguable difference in drivers, but such a difference hardly merits making others, especially where additional differences merely widen the gap. How many people running the 325 down have heard those same cans with flats? Maybe it's time to let Harry Potter move out of from beneath the staircase. Maybe, with the right set of pads, the 325s will open a few eyes (or ears).

Has anyone here tried to couple 325s with flats? If so, what were your thoughts?
 
May 8, 2010 at 7:40 PM Post #2 of 14
This is an excellent post.  Well thought out, informative, and, unless I'm mistaken, it seems to relate to what I've been experiencing over the last 24 hours.  I'll just delete this if it's off-topic, I don't mean to hijack your thoughts.
 
Note: I am not an extreme audiophile and I don't have a ton of experience with various headphones yet.  Feel free to laugh at my post-count, as I rarely touch this account (it is a bit too intimidating for me).  I do care about how my music sounds, however, which is why I recently picked up an eBay-auctioned "SR-325is" model with "around 50 hours of usage", according to the ad.  I had assumed it would be similar to, but better than, my previous SR-80s (not the i version).  In nearly every way, this is true.  But for me, this has seemingly come at a cost: a noticeable headache/deep earache pain.  For the record - I don't get headaches - ever.
 
I am more sensitive than most to the high-pitched sound that I'm hearing out of my new (70 hours or so on them, estimated) 325s.  Is this the "sibilance" everyone describes?  You may be on to something here - the cold "shrill" of curved metal could be at least partially to blame for causing this frustration.  I just had to go take some ibuprofen an hour ago, because my ears are hurting deep inside the canal.  I don't have health insurance right now, being one of the many unemployed, so this is honestly a bit scary for me.  This was at an extremely low volume, I might add.  Perhaps I have an ear infection and this just unsettled some lodged wax.  The theories are flying all over the place as to the cause of this.
 
I'm going to be giving them some serious time for proper burn-in as well as trying to fit the HD414(bright yellow) pads over them as I did with my SR80s back in yesteryear.  I'll repost here if that's what you were referring to.  The sharpness and detail probably simply needs to be toned down just a notch, and I'm hoping I can control it with the proper pads (this is likely considered something of a cardinal sin here - reducing detail, that is).  By "flats" are you referring to the outer casing, or the pads?  I am not immediately familiar with this term.  Though everyone recommends cutting holes in the HD414 pads, I fear that the pain would likely be as bad as it is now if I chose to do so.  For now, I'm just going to trust that they will help mitigate the painful treble like they did for my SR80 "bumblebees" (an endearing term I used for the tasteless but cozy yellow/black mix).  I am still somewhat young at age 24, and perhaps I am making my decisions based on information from wiser but older individuals who simply aren't as sensitive to this sort of thing anymore (there are direct correlations with hearing high-pitched frequencies and age, I mean no offense whatsoever)...I'm just not sure.  I just worry about damaging my hearing with this sort of pain happening, it's quite insane.
 
I suppose I should have done more research on this before making my decision, and I wish I could go to a doctor to see if it's some bad ear infection I've never noticed until now (this has happened many times during my teen years).  It was just my assumption that I would love them, because I trusted that Grado would pull through - and the newer, the better, right?  I've never tried HD600s/650s because I was so captivated with the sound coming out of my SR80s I thought those wouldn't do it for me.  I also have a Sennheiser PC350 headset lying around to feed my gaming habits, which are a complete joke in comparison to any conventional cans talked about here due to the bass "thwummp" issue caused by poor ventilation (some people drill holes in them, etc - you can read about it anywhere on these forums).  Your post has brought me some serious insight on the usage of materials in headphones in relation to how they sound.  Perhaps plastic is best for me...hmm.
 
I will return to this thread armed with more information from my findings in the future.
 
May 8, 2010 at 8:21 PM Post #4 of 14
I used 325i with bowls, flats & comfies. I liked the bowls best for the detail they provide. I seldom used the flats because IMO, they killed off detail although they do help bass. I could get similar bass just by taping the bowls.
 
May 9, 2010 at 12:51 AM Post #6 of 14
Flats need to be modded; otherwise they come off too muffled.  You simply take scissors and cut a couple of millimeters around the inner ring.  This will open up the HF.  You end up with the best of both worlds: a clearer HF and pounding LF.
 
For anyone unfamiliar with them, flats are a headphone cushion sold exclusively by Todd the Vinyl Junkie (TTVJ) for $35.  They're about 2/3 as tall as the bowls but they don't have that concave top.  They're also firmer in the surface layer.  A firmer contact surface helps project bass better.  I wouldn't use them with headphones that are already bassy or at least sufficiently neutral in their tonic balance.  I see them as a way of mellowing the presentation with headphones that are overly bright.
 
For whatever reason, the 325s have a reputation for being unreasonably bright.  Part of the problem comes from the longer period of burn-in.  When coming from the lower Prestige Grados, you may be expecting a quicker burn-in.  As a gross rule of thumb, double your burn-in time for these.  It worked for me.  But while you're at it, it wouldn't hurt to use pads that minimize HF extension and capture more bass.  You can tape bowls, though you only need to put your strip in the soft center (the second of the three layers is where a lot of bass goes bye-bye).  My suggestion about using the flats on the 325s comes from what I know of the flats, as well as their use on out-of-production PS1 and HP1000 series phones - which were aluminum but bassier and highly sought-after.
 
The 325 really is a terrific phone with lots of wonderful sparkle and sheen, but you either have to get a warm amp or find ways to capture the bass.  Otherwise, you'll end up cranking the volume, in an attempt to get more bass, and simply crank up the treble with it.  People complain that Grados are too grating but it's because they're trying to simply turn up the volume when the presentation is overly bright.  That's like drinking more sea water because you have a salty taste in your mouth.  You need to restore the balance.  My M^3 with STEPS does a terrific job of turning any Grado into a bass-slamming monster.  Without amping, I use flats to even the score.  But again, I don't use flats where the presentation doesn't need a tonal shift.
 
May 9, 2010 at 1:52 AM Post #8 of 14
and lots and lots more burn-in.
 
Mine got punchy bass as it is as well as over 600 hours use, lol.
I've tried taping the pads on my 325is - I ended up returning to the stock config because didn't like how the highs were affected.
 
How do those TTVJ flats compare to the s-cush? And if one were to cut out a hole in the s-cush?
 
I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but I read that 325is more or less needs 300 hours or so use before it sounds its best.  The imaging needs more than that, much more. Right now I can throw anything at these 'phones and get zero congestion. At 300 hours, they would get congested somewhat easily. They also had a bit less bass.
 
Instead of using tape, I liked better using a ring of cotton sheet between the plastic surrounding the baffle and earpad.
Lately, I have a ring of Dynamat Xtreme (black putty only) on the baffle between the center hole and the ring of holes around it. They sound smoother and I have the the putty intruding slightly into the holes (except the center one) which tames the upper mids' a tad bit. I'm really liking it.
 
May 9, 2010 at 2:17 AM Post #9 of 14
What is this "*-Cush" bs I keep seeing around here these days? Who's idea was it to give the Grado pads this convoluted lettering system. 
 
I guess simply calling them bowls, flats, and comfies made too much sense... 
 
May 9, 2010 at 2:33 AM Post #10 of 14
The 325 don't have metal cups and therefore don't sound like the PS1 HP1000. The cups are made of plastic and have a very thin metal outer cover.
The Magnum upgrade replaces the plastic cup with an aluminium one and it does indeed make them sound a lot more like the PS1.
Magnums are best with flats, like the ps1.
 
May 9, 2010 at 3:51 AM Post #11 of 14


Quote:
What is this "*-Cush" bs I keep seeing around here these days? Who's idea was it to give the Grado pads this convoluted lettering system. 
 
I guess simply calling them bowls, flats, and comfies made too much sense... 

Jus' tellin' it lak ah see it, homes.
 
May 9, 2010 at 5:03 AM Post #12 of 14
Now that I'm familiar with the term, yes, I am certain I bought a pair of flats with my SR-80s in 2006.  I didn't like them as much as I liked the HD414 pads I later purchased (and just re-ordered today, cheap!) with regard to comfort or sound - on those.  "Murky" or "muddy" is an excellent way to refer to them, and mine also ended up falling apart because I did the quarter-cut improperly to try and change them to sound better.  As I recall, back then it was just a  "cut a hole in the middle" mod, and I wasn't nearly careful enough.  
 
It has been some time, but I distinctly remember being genuinely surprised at the detail coming right through those Senn pads w/ SR-80s, they are certainly made of a very different material.  Has anyone here had experience with those?  If they don't work as well as my own comfort and experience tells me they will with my 325s I'll definitely retry the flats and possibly pick up some G-cush comfy pads, too, just for experimentation.
 
Thanks for the tip about having serious patience with the 325s, Mad Max.  I will reserve judgement here for a nice long while.  My ears are no longer in pain.  I'm thinking that my PA2V2 was pushed up a little too high at this early stage in the break-in process. 
rolleyes.gif

 
May 9, 2010 at 7:39 AM Post #13 of 14


Quote:
The 325 don't have metal cups and therefore don't sound like the PS1 HP1000. The cups are made of plastic and have a very thin metal outer cover.
The Magnum upgrade replaces the plastic cup with an aluminium one and it does indeed make them sound a lot more like the PS1.
Magnums are best with flats, like the ps1.



Is this right?  I thought that they were as the OP states
 
May 9, 2010 at 11:45 AM Post #14 of 14
Don't know about flats but 4 months ago I purchased both the 225is and the 325is's so that I could listen to them h2h for a few days (obviously they didn't fully break in) to decide which one I liked better.  This was explicitly because of all the "OMG - the 325s are sooo Brite!" comments floating around on the intra-web...
 
Anyway, long story short, the 325s are vastly superior to the 225s IMHO, and the 225s went back to the store and the 325s stayed with me.  Absolutely no regrets and end of discussion as far as I'm concerned  :)
 

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