24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded!

[Locknar]

Quote:

 
No, I'm not a Luddite and I dont have cloth ears, but I do realise how skilful many DAC makers are in the time-honored technique of baffling us with BS. I know Head-Fi is a 'bigger is automatically better' cave, but if something sounds good to me at 24/96 (or, gasp, 16/44.1 ...), I'm not going to spend 2K on a DAC simply because the numbers excite the tech geeks among us. 

 
Ha Ha! Hear, Hear!

J
 

 
 

 

[kiteki]

 (post #001) /img/forum/go_quote.gif

So, if you accept the facts, why does 24bit audio even exist, what's the point of it? There are some useful application for 24bit when recording and mixing music. In fact, when mixing it's pretty much the norm now to use 48bit resolution. The reason it's useful is due to summing artefacts, multiple processing in series and mainly headroom. In other words, 24bit is very useful when recording and mixing but pointless for playback. Remember, even a recording with 60dB dynamic range is only using 10bits of data, the other 6bits on a CD are just noise. So, the difference in the real world between 16bit and 24bit is an extra 8bits of noise.

 
 
OK, so the thread starter says 24 bit is superior and very useful for recording.
 
Let's see, it takes up one third (1/3) extra disk space over 16 bit.  Last time I checked, a 2 TB external hard-drive now costs a little over $100 at my local supermarket, last time I checked... you can fit 70 CD's on a dual-layer blu-ray disc.
 
Keep it in 24 bit for playback too, then you don't need to discuss all this theory.
 
 
It's true 16/44.1 is very very satisfactory, it's not true it's the ultimate.

 

[stv014]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiteki /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Let's see, it takes up one third (1/3) extra disk space over 16 bit.

 
With FLAC or other lossless compressed formats, it is actually more, because the additional 8 bits per sample contain mainly noise, and compress poorly.

 

[grokit]

I just downloaded a copy of the new Norah Jones Little Broken Hearts from HDtracks:

"Mastered at New York’s legendary Sterling Sound by Norah Jones’ longtime mastering engineer Greg Calbi, Little Broken Hearts is available in master-quality 24-bit audio from the original flat mix sources, the highest quality format available. Little Broken Hearts (44.1kHz/24bit)

 

[kiteki]

When I read the first post in this thread a second or third time, it makes it sound like 16 bit is unecessary and we should downsample recordings to 12, 8 or 4 bit.
 
...if the only difference is unecessary dynamic range since the most we'll ever listen to is ~60dB. (?)

 

[khaos974]

When I read the first post in this thread a second or third time, it makes it sound like 16 bit is unecessary and we should downsample recordings to 12, 8 or 4 bit.

...if the only difference is unecessary dynamic range since the most we'll ever listen to is ~60dB. (?)

Background noise would be audible if we reduced bit depth, I have ABX'ed successfully 16 and 14 bit files.
(same origin, volume and time aligned)

 

[xnor]

@kiteki: See LossyWAV/FLAC for reduced bit depth where it most probably cannot be heard.

 

[Baxide]

Quote:

Background noise would be audible if we reduced bit depth, I have ABX'ed successfully 16 and 14 bit files.
(same origin, volume and time aligned)

Are you sure? My first CD player was a 12 bit design from about 1984. My next one was a 14 bit unit, which I then replaced with a 14 bit/4x oversampling Marantz. The 12 bit CDP sounded quite good actually as did the 14 bit one. I think one was a Fisher and the other a Hitachi.

 

[khaos974]

Background noise would be audible if we reduced bit depth, I have ABX'ed successfully 16 and 14 bit files.

(same origin, volume and time aligned)

Are you sure? My first CD player was a 12 bit design from about 1984. My next one was a 14 bit unit, which I then replaced with a 14 bit/4x oversampling Marantz. The 12 bit CDP sounded quite good actually as did the 14 bit one. I think one was a Fisher and the other a Hitachi.

I didn't say it sounded bad, merely that I ABX'ed it,
Also, most delta sigma dac operate only on a depth of a few bit, using oversampling to reject noise out of the audible band, I'm not familiar with the CDP you talked about but how a DAC operates has little to do with the bit depth of the recording.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

With FLAC or other lossless compressed formats, it is actually more, because the additional 8 bits per sample contain mainly noise, and compress poorly.

 
That should be the proof right there that those extra bits only serve to more precisely define the noise floor.
 
Then you realize that if they reject Shannon-Nyquist sampling theorem out of hand then they're likely to reject Shannon entropy too...

 

[bigshot]

Keep it in 24 bit for playback too, then you don't need to discuss all this [COLOR=0000FF]theory.[/COLOR] It's [COLOR=0000FF]true[/COLOR] 16/44.1 is very very satisfactory, it's [COLOR=800080]not true[/COLOR] it's the ultimate.

I like to mail letters in refrigerator boxes just to make sure they don't get any creases in the mail.

 

[compoopers]

Well, after reading this thread and many others, I've joined the camp that "24/192" stuff is unnecessary for listening to music. Thanks guys it was very informative.

 

[joe_cool]

Quote:

I just downloaded a copy of the new Norah Jones Little Broken Hearts from HDtracks:
"Mastered at New York’s legendary Sterling Sound by Norah Jones’ longtime mastering engineer Greg Calbi, Little Broken Hearts is available in master-quality 24-bit audio from the original flat mix sources, the highest quality format available. Little Broken Hearts (44.1kHz/24bit)

and......
How about a review or some opinions?
(I'm a big fan of Norah Jones. I have the SACD of her first album and look forward to more.)

 

[grokit]

It's very good, at least for my tastes. I sometimes wonder about her direction and influences but not here, this seems to be all Norah. It's a pop fusion of blues jazz & rock so not for the purist, but right in her creative wheelhouse IMHO. The SQ is quite good.
 
Thanks for reminding me to go back and listen again. I need to get a file converter going because it takes a "special procedure" to play FLAC ATM with iTunes/Pure Music. I probably have one downloaded already, just haven't used it yet.

 

[Cszcot]

Wow, this is cool, thanks, always confused about bits, since I can't really tell the difference