[bigshot]

I'd never tell anyone what music I expect to be what, if anything of what I just said was true. I know it hurts peoples feelings to make judgments.

Analysis is the anvil that opinions are hammered out on. Never be afraid to express opinions. As long as you make clear what your criteria for judging are and you give concrete examples, you might be wrong, but you're still doing it right. Just be open to other people's arguments and don't be afraid to switch if those are more compelling. That's how you learn from people. Those who get hurt feelings and claim that all opinions are equal aren't doing it right. They get nowhere. They stand in place in ignorance. And taking an "expert's" word for it blindly is abrogating your responsibility to think for yourself.

The thing to remember is, two opposing arguments may both be correct. It all depends on the criteria used for judging. The way to understand is to apply other people's criteria yourself, so you can see where they are coming from. That might give you an angle on it you hadn't considered. Truth is like a diamond. You look through one facet, and you see one thing. Look through a different facet, you see something else. But it's all one thing.

 

[PhonoPhi]

Stravinsky is probably the biggest influence in film scores. For Star Wars, John Williams pilfered The Planets and Wagner because that fit the action serial format. But most movies have more complex emotional themes. It seems that there's standard issue influences depending on the picture. For instance, it seems that every time there is a snow scene, the composers trot out Sibelius.

Of course a lot of what passes for film scores now are just loops and chords without structure. The synth and sampling has made it easy to infer symphonic music without actually creating symphonic music,

Stravinsky was a "compiler", most amazing and successful at that, trained by Rimsky-Korsakov (as a pinnacle of Western music supplanted into Russian cultural traditions military-style), etc., perhaps a composer with the most success/recognition per minimum original musical contribution. To me using Stravinsky's music by earlier Holliwood feel too rough

Wagner with his leitmotifs, and shows of "old good Hollywood" proportions, must be named as an ultimate name for all programmatic music.

Then Mahler and Tchaikovsky, and it should be sufficient.

My favourite ever film music is almost direct adaptation of Mahler by John Williams, and Williams' music resonates more.
John Williams is a genius to me, beating Stravinsky in applied aspects of music, and being less recognized by some - only due to his honest down to earth attitude.

 

[71 dB]

Hmmm not sure I really agree with that. Most film composers have a very good understanding of theory and harmony and not necessarily modern ideas. John Williams for example, arguably the most but certainly one of the most successful film composers is almost entirely based on structures and harmony from the mid/late C19th. In fact most film composers would be classified as romantic/post romantic composers. Some though have been on the cutting edge of contemporary music developments (Bernard Hermann and Bebe and Louis Baron for example). Some are more like music producers though, they don’t really know much/any music theory, they just come up with some of the melodies, it’s all arranged, harmonised and orchestrated by others, they just ask for alterations until they’re happy and supervise the recording and mixing. One Oscar winning film composer I worked with had the compositional and music theory skills of a school child!

Even EDM is based on many very old or relatively old music theory principles. So learning them could certainly prove useful. Of course, knowledge is one thing, how you use/apply it is something else entirely.

G

there are different kind of movie music. Tangerine Dream's and Joseph Bishara's movie music is quite different from John Williams. So, my point was you can write certain type of movie music without knowing how classical music is composed, but you can't write piano sonatas like Beethoven.

Yes, EDM is based on "old" stuff, but in a limited way. You don't need to study pieces counterpoint to write a House track. On the other hand for example rave harmony is based on unrelated minor triads in a multi-tonal way which is a bit alien concept in common practice classical music.

 

[gregorio]

Stravinsky was a "compiler", most amazing and successful at that, trained by Rimsky-Korsakov (as a pinnacle of Western music supplanted into Russian cultural traditions military-style), etc., perhaps a composer with the most success/recognition per minimum original musical contribution.

I can’t agree with that. Maybe his earlier “impressionist” period but even the Firebird had some innovative/unique concepts. But when we come to Petrushka and even more with the Rites of Spring it was a massive original musical contribution. In fact it was so packed with original ideas in rhythm, harmony/tonality and metre, it was arguably one of the most shocking/biggest original contributions in the whole history of western classical music.

However, I entirely agree with the rest of your post. Wagner is probably the single most influential composer for film score composers, Mahler and Tchaikovsky are up there too. And John Williams is probably also at the top of my list of film composers, although maybe jointly with Morricone. Williams is THE master craftsman of the orchestral film score IMHO but he’s not an innovator, so nowhere even close to Stravinsky in that regard.

G

 

[gregorio]

there are different kind of movie music. Tangerine Dream's and Joseph Bishara's movie music is quite different from John Williams.

Sure, but it’s still all based on music theory. John Williams music is based mostly on C19th Romantic period music theory, Joseph Bishara’s on more recent music theory. I don’t know a lot of Bishara’s film scores off the top of my head but what I’ve heard was part of classical music theory by the 1960’s, from composers such as Ligeti and others. And Tangerine Dream used chord progressions dating back to the Renaissance period, synth techniques developed by classical music in the 1950’s and as far as I’m aware, some/all of them were trained in Music Theory.

So, my point was you can write certain type of movie music without knowing how classical music is composed, but you can't write piano sonatas like Beethoven.

I’m not sure that’s true. There isn’t much movie music which isn’t reliant to some degree on music theory developed in the Renaissance/Baroque and none at all that I can recall that isn’t reliant on some already established music theory. As I said before though, there maybe some film composers who aren’t fully aware of that fact.

G

 

[71 dB]

I'm tired.

 

[bigshot]

Here’s some fun. The brass may suggest Wagner, and the opening theme is channeling Wagner, but the underscore and creepy stuff has tons of Stravinsky.

Crime/suspense movies have a lot of Stravinsky too. It depends on the genre.

 

[PhonoPhi]

I can’t agree with that. Maybe his earlier “impressionist” period but even the Firebird had some innovative/unique concepts. But when we come to Petrushka and even more with the Rites of Spring it was a massive original musical contribution. In fact it was so packed with original ideas in rhythm, harmony/tonality and metre, it was arguably one of the most shocking/biggest original contributions in the whole history of western classical music.

However, I entirely agree with the rest of your post. Wagner is probably the single most influential composer for film score composers, Mahler and Tchaikovsky are up there too. And John Williams is probably also at the top of my list of film composers, although maybe jointly with Morricone. Williams is THE master craftsman of the orchestral film score IMHO but he’s not an innovator, so nowhere even close to Stravinsky in that regard.

G

No arguments with your disagreement, I definitely exaggerated for the sake of arguments.
I revere Stravinsky (just the way how he adapted/transcended atonal music alone is precious), yet it may be helpful to understand his limitations, and how he overcame them.
His famous Le Sacre du printemps is based on Lithuanian pagan folk music, amazingly adapted, yet original only in arranging it in the Western tradition.
RImsky-Korsakov was heavily influenced by Wagner, and he enabled Stravinsky with the tools to create music in this venue/fashion.

Stravinsky had a strong penchant for provoking people - for instance his famous/infamous adaptation of the American anthem.

John Williams, by contrast, is so much down to earth and writing for people, so it is his melodies (and not Shoenberg's despite his wishful aspirations) that are sung and performed by schoolchildren.

 

[bigshot]

Can you please link me to a video of Lithuanian folk music that sounds like Rite of Spring? I've heard a little bit of folk music from that area, but nothing I've heard sounds remotely like Rite.

 

[Steve999]

Great stuff above!!

Random impressions, sorry if I am using a lot of words without saying much:

I really like Chopin for what he did with harmony and arrangement of notes and creative devices on the piano. To me he is one of the great innovators also.





To me theory is a bit like snowflakes. Maybe, for an example as used above, a reed or horn player is going to be much more likely to think in the key of Eb rather than D#, because he works with instruments that are Bb and Ab instruments, that is, where the reference of what they call a C by conventional notation for their instrument is said by standard music theory to be actually sounding as a Bb (trumpet, tenor sax, clarinet) or Ab (alto sax), so because of how the theory behind key signatures works, most everybody in the winds and reeds sections prefers to think in Eb, not D#—practicalities like that affect how people are thinking of the music.

The same note combinations can be called by different names for chords, depending on what’s going through the minds of the musicians, a minor 7th for example can be the same notes as a major 6th. So if that’s slightly too technical for a few people the thing to know is it’s like snowflakes, what you call it just depends on how you are looking at it, what angles you are hearing it from.

There was a great guitarist named Pat Martino, he explained on the net in places in his later years what was going through his head when he made chord substitutions or solos with specific notes over certain chords, I guarantee you that no one else on God’s green earth thought of it that way, but he had a logical and internally consistent harmonic structure in his mind and the music he played flowed incredibly well melodically and harmonically and just plain sounded great, but you don’t need to know exactly what he was thinking, or how he would have tried to explain it, even other great musicians will not be thinking the same thing, to be blown away by the music.









A thing to know about Bach and other baroque music but especially Bach in my opinion is that for its time it was wildly ornate and innovative and really breaking down barriers and was kind of like kaleidoscope mind music. I think it helps to try to listen to it with those types of ears. Like Toccata and Fugue ini D minor for example or the way even some of his very simple piano pieces from the Well Tempered Clavier sets spin out with kaleidoscope possibilities, maybe like a serene or deranged race car driver who keeps very nearly flying off of or spinning out on the track but in the end he (or she!!) finishes the race, even without theory per se I think maybe it helps to try and listen to Bach more like that, rather than like you are looking at a painting at a museum.

 

[bigshot]

One thing I’ve learned about Chopin is that performance makes a huge difference. A lot of pianists perform his music politely like delicate lace handkerchiefs, and some of them, particularly Polish pianists, play it with blood and guts and incredible passion. Two completely different approaches. Here's a brilliant example by the greatest interpreter of Chopin ever, Arthur Rubinstein.

 

[71 dB]

Sure, but it’s still all based on music theory.

Yes, but the are different sections of music theory. That's my point. You can know all the music theory there is and that's really good if you do, but someone who is learning stuff can study fusion harmony for example and start creating music based on fusion harmony WITHOUT any knowledge of pieces counterpoint or sonata from.

John Williams music is based mostly on C19th Romantic period music theory, Joseph Bishara’s on more recent music theory.

Yes. Joseph Bishara possibly knows classical music theory, but chooses to not use it much. Similarly, John Williams started as a jazz musician, but gets to show his jazz-side rarely in movie scores.

I don’t know a lot of Bishara’s film scores off the top of my head but what I’ve heard was part of classical music theory by the 1960’s, from composers such as Ligeti and others.

Yes, something like that.

And Tangerine Dream used chord progressions dating back to the Renaissance period, synth techniques developed by classical music in the 1950’s and as far as I’m aware, some/all of them were trained in Music Theory.

Yes, but sonata form developed in the 19th century and Tangerine Dream's music isn't composed in sonata from.

I’m not sure that’s true. There isn’t much movie music which isn’t reliant to some degree on music theory developed in the Renaissance/Baroque and none at all that I can recall that isn’t reliant on some already established music theory. As I said before though, there maybe some film composers who aren’t fully aware of that fact.

G

Movie music theory contains the parts of classical music theory that are relevant. There is overlapping and of course any kind of music can be created for movies, but instead of painstakingly compose a piano sonata that sounds like Beethoven, why not just use Beethoven's music and be done with it?

 

[gregorio]

… it may be helpful to understand his limitations, and how he overcame them.
His famous Le Sacre du printemps is based on Lithuanian pagan folk music, amazingly adapted, yet original only in arranging it in the Western tradition.

I really can’t let that pass. I suspect you might have made this assertion for that reason, because otherwise it’s hard to fathom how/why you state such a thing? Sure, the opening bassoon solo is based on a Lithuanian folk song but that’s it, the rest of the piece is all original. In context; it was a routine practice for numerous composers from the mid 1800’s through the C20th to quote folk songs/dances or incorporate folk idioms in their compositions, some composers extensively so: Grieg, Glinka, Mussorgsky, Bartok, Smetana, Vaughan-Williams, Albeniz, Copland and many others besides. Some compositions by these and others could loosely fit your description but the Rite of Spring is definitely not one of them, if anything, the exact opposite is true! Due to it being packed with novel/original ideas and the huge influence it had on other composers, the Rite of Spring is one of the most analysed compositions in the history of classical music and many speculated where all those original ideas came from. Stravinsky stated that other than the bassoon solo, he did not use any folk song references. It’s entirely likely that he was subconsciously influenced by some pieces of folk music but if so, the references are so obscure they need some deep analysis, along with some “creative interpretation” to identify. In either case, that’s a very far cry from your assertion that the piece is effectively just pagan folk music arranged in the western tradition.

The Rite of Spring was shocking for it’s lack of limitations, arranging/adapting folk music was not how Stravinsky “overcame them” and therefore it is pretty much the opposite of “helpful to understand” this!

RImsky-Korsakov was heavily influenced by Wagner, and he enabled Stravinsky with the tools to create music in this venue/fashion.

It would be silly for me to claim that Stravinsky was not influenced by Rimsky-Korsakov (his private teacher as an older student) and certainly Korsakov’s penchant for researching and incorporating folklore in his work must have influenced the subject matter for the Rite of Spring but again, how Stravinsky executed that musically was so shockingly original/divergent from the late romantic period compositional conventions (exemplified by Korsakov), it could be seen as a rebellion against the “tools to create music” given him by Korsakov rather than due to them.

John Williams, by contrast, is so much down to earth and writing for people, so it is his melodies (and not Shoenberg's despite his wishful aspirations) that are sung and performed by schoolchildren.

I presume you meant Stravinsky rather than Schoenberg? If so, again that really couldn’t be less true of the Rite of Spring! A striking feature of the Rite of Spring is the technical demands it places on the performers. The bassoon solo for example is effectively written in the range of an oboe (or at least a cor anglais), so it’s at the extreme high end of the bassoon’s range and this is a trend throughout the piece for many other instruments. Stravinsky did this deliberately, he wanted it to sound “strained”, it’s almost like he sat down and said to himself: “What’s right on the limit of what a professional bassoon, tuba, horn, flute, etc., player could do? OK, I’m going to write a piece of music made up of that.” It would be fascinating to hear one of the early performances because it’s doubtful any of the orchestras could get very close to being able to perform it accurately. Of course, it eventually became a standard part of the orchestral repertoire so we all had to learn how to play it but even today, it requires a talented, advanced student to even reasonably attempt it and it’s still very challenging even for the top players. So stating that Stravinsky had wishful intentions for it to be performed or sung by schoolchildren really couldn’t be further from the truth.

G

 

[gregorio]

someone who is learning stuff can study fusion harmony for example and start creating music based on fusion harmony WITHOUT any knowledge of pieces counterpoint or sonata from.

You seem to think that Music Theory is just sonata form or counterpoint, it isn’t. Music theory is all the forms, binary form, tertiary form, rondo form, symphony, concerto and other forms, it also includes modern popular music forms, such as 12 bar blues, the verse/chorus form found in most pop music, etc.

Can you start creating fusion harmony without knowing counterpoint or sonata form? Sure but you’re going to have a tough job without knowing what a chord is, at least some of the various chords, such as I, IV, V, Major or Minor or what harmony is, all of which were defined in the 1400’s by classical Music Theory.

Yes. Joseph Bishara possibly knows classical music theory, but chooses to not use it much. Similarly, John Williams …

All the Bishara music I’ve heard uses music theory extensively and John Williams could hardly use it more extensively!

Yes, but sonata form developed in the 19th century and Tangerine Dream's music isn't composed in sonata from.

Does Tangerine Dream’s music use any structure/form at all? You think maybe it’s a structure/form completely unknown to Music Theory? What about chords, melodies, rhythms or synthesiser techniques? Seeing as most/all of them studied music theory when they were younger, it seems pretty unlikely they all forgot it completely and incorporated all that music theory unknowingly, by chance.

Movie music theory contains the parts of classical music theory that are relevant.

Music Theory includes notation, harmony/tonality, structure/form, rhythm and melody. How many pieces of film music do you know that don’t include any of these things? Assuming the answer is none, then music theory is obviously always relevant to movie music!

G

 

[PhonoPhi]

I really can’t let that pass. I suspect you might have made this assertion for that reason, because otherwise it’s hard to fathom how/why you state such a thing? Sure, the opening bassoon solo is based on a Lithuanian folk song but that’s it, the rest of the piece is all original. In context; it was a routine practice for numerous composers from the mid 1800’s through the C20th to quote folk songs/dances or incorporate folk idioms in their compositions, some composers extensively so: Grieg, Glinka, Mussorgsky, Bartok, Smetana, Vaughan-Williams, Albeniz, Copland and many others besides. Some compositions by these and others could loosely fit your description but the Rite of Spring is definitely not one of them, if anything, the exact opposite is true! Due to it being packed with novel/original ideas and the huge influence it had on other composers, the Rite of Spring is one of the most analysed compositions in the history of classical music and many speculated where all those original ideas came from. Stravinsky stated that other than the bassoon solo, he did not use any folk song references. It’s entirely likely that he was subconsciously influenced by some pieces of folk music but if so, the references are so obscure they need some deep analysis, along with some “creative interpretation” to identify. In either case, that’s a very far cry from your assertion that the piece is effectively just pagan folk music arranged in the western tradition.

The Rite of Spring was shocking for it’s lack of limitations, arranging/adapting folk music was not how Stravinsky “overcame them” and therefore it is pretty much the opposite of “helpful to understand” this!

It would be silly for me to claim that Stravinsky was not influenced by Rimsky-Korsakov (his private teacher as an older student) and certainly Korsakov’s penchant for researching and incorporating folklore in his work must have influenced the subject matter for the Rite of Spring but again, how Stravinsky executed that musically was so shockingly original/divergent from the late romantic period compositional conventions (exemplified by Korsakov), it could be seen as a rebellion against the “tools to create music” given him by Korsakov rather than due to them.

I presume you meant Stravinsky rather than Schoenberg? If so, again that really couldn’t be less true of the Rite of Spring! A striking feature of the Rite of Spring is the technical demands it places on the performers. The bassoon solo for example is effectively written in the range of an oboe (or at least a cor anglais), so it’s at the extreme high end of the bassoon’s range and this is a trend throughout the piece for many other instruments. Stravinsky did this deliberately, he wanted it to sound “strained”, it’s almost like he sat down and said to himself: “What’s right on the limit of what a professional bassoon, tuba, horn, flute, etc., player could do? OK, I’m going to write a piece of music made up of that.” It would be fascinating to hear one of the early performances because it’s doubtful any of the orchestras could get very close to being able to perform it accurately. Of course, it eventually became a standard part of the orchestral repertoire so we all had to learn how to play it but even today, it requires a talented, advanced student to even reasonably attempt it and it’s still very challenging even for the top players. So stating that Stravinsky had wishful intentions for it to be performed or sung by schoolchildren really couldn’t be further from the truth.

G

Not arguing much more, I do not see much points. I am not a professional musician, and what I write is my limited opinion.
The very least, another direct adaptation in The Rite of Spring is from Rimsky-Korsakov's compilation of 100 Russian folk songs was documented by Taruskin. I am sure there are more.
Also, Stravinsky was advised a lot on orchestration by Ravel and others, and have a lot redone, and it paid off. Stravinsky was a very hard working person. Mastering the tools, he could adapt/rework a lot, his long "neoclassical" period fits for me into my limited opinion on his abilities and limitations.

Can you please link me to a video of Lithuanian folk music that sounds like Rite of Spring? I've heard a little bit of folk music from that area, but nothing I've heard sounds remotely like Rite.

No videos, recordings, as far as I know. Rimsky-Korsakov had a draft/copy of ethnographic music collected recently (given his interests), which he evidently shared with Stravinsky. This collection has been published only later and in few copies. I have seen an image of the first pages shared in one of the music forums. I tried to find it now, and could not. I will look and ask, it is harder now to get materials from Russia.

P.S. edited typos