[dazzerfong]

  What is truly embarassing ?
 
Once musicians, who listen ( mainly, mostly, with very few exceptions far in between ) without technical knowledge, WILL start to "thank" for "the perfect sound forever" - not only privately, but publicly so.
 
No amount of real world or virtual ink - or how I call it - chicken squawking - will do the trick. Getting the musician to listen to his/hers recording does - every time.
But it has to be made well and played back on quality enough gear. And it IS tedious to the max - you have to start with each individual person from the start. It is only a smidge less difficult to convince and work with a musician #(n+1) after being recommended to him/her by the musician #(n).
 
Guess what ? About a week ago, the artistic director of a vocal group, a female, most definitely without any technical background, asked me in a caffe if I know "those tiny black discs you put on the CD to make it sound better" ? Of course, they are called CD mats, usually made from carbon fibre - I use them for approx 7 years now - and told her to come by to collect hers the next day, as I always happen to have a few samples in stock. 
 
Musicians LISTEN - and they WILL go to reasonable lengths when they discover that something is representing their efforts better. Whatever it takes. And although I have been recording with said person numerous times by now, direct to CD-R with the obligatory CD mat included, I never specifically pointed out the use of the CD mat. But it DID come around - because she DOES care about how she listens to music - even if it is still from the CD.
 
For now...

Why not just fix up their recordings such that CD is the limiting factor, not the skill and abilities of the music producers? You are now really scraping at the bottom of the barrel if we're talking about CD mats rather than poor mastering.
 
But that's another story for another time, isn't it? For now, 16 bit vs 24 bit.

 

[analogsurviver]

 
Why not just fix up their recordings such that CD is the limiting factor, not the skill and abilities of the music producers? You are now really scraping at the bottom of the barrel if we're talking about CD mats rather than poor mastering.
 
But that's another story for another time, isn't it? For now, 16 bit vs 24 bit.

First of all, bad recording can not be "mastered" into a decent one. Better yes, good enough - no. Regardless in which format it appears. Skill and abillities of the music producer will always be the limiting factor - there is no way in the world to make a multimiked recording sounding realistic.
 
24 vs 16 bit is not that objectionable - as I have written before. It is really hard to get music and venue that will challenge the 96 dB dynamic range - at least once mastered for final delivery. Minimum delivery format should be 88.2/16 . Recording is another matter - 24 bit is required for headroom and later post production. Or better still, going DSD .
 
What I do find objectionable is limited frequency response. 
 
And the inability of the laser optics to read the CDs well enough. Which has to be helped by a mat... - remember, you have to rip CDs somehow to get them on the hard disk - it applies here too, regardless if you no longer listen to a CD player.
 
Which is not to say that I do not find listening to 192/32 floating amazing - on equipment that can do it justice. Amazing enough to consider ABXing it against redbook a total and utter waste of time - but, this time at least, Foobar2000 does allow for it properly. 

 

[RRod]

 
Which is not to say that I do not find listening to 192/32 floating amazing - on equipment that can do it justice. Amazing enough to consider ABXing it against redbook a total and utter waste of time - but, this time at least, Foobar2000 does allow for it properly. 

 
It's easy enough to convert between Redbook and 32f/192, and I'm sure there's got to be an ABX program out there that handles floating-point properly.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
It's easy enough to convert between Redbook and 32f/192, and I'm sure there's got to be an ABX program out there that handles floating-point properly.

Foobar2000 ABX works well enough - as well as Korg Audiogate for conversions - but what is the point of the ABX of 192/32float vs redbook, IF the original is hirez or even DSD ?

 

[RRod]

  Foobar2000 ABX works well enough - as well as Korg Audiogate for conversions - but what is the point of the ABX of 192/32float vs redbook, IF the original is hirez or even DSD ?

 
What do you mean? The whole point of ABX is to see if you can really hear the different between hi-res and Redbook when blind… If 32f/192 sounds so amazing, then it should be obvious to your ears when we suddenly shift to a 16/44.1 version.

 

[StanD]

  :
What I do find objectionable is limited frequency response. 
:

What about people making superhuman claims that are not possible?

 

[lamode]

  Guess what ? About a week ago, the artistic director of a vocal group, a female, most definitely without any technical background, asked me in a caffe if I know "those tiny black discs you put on the CD to make it sound better" ? Of course, they are called CD mats, usually made from carbon fibre - I use them for approx 7 years now - and told her to come by to collect hers the next day, as I always happen to have a few samples in stock. 
 
Musicians LISTEN - and they WILL go to reasonable lengths when they discover that something is representing their efforts better. Whatever it takes. And although I have been recording with said person numerous times by now, direct to CD-R with the obligatory CD mat included, I never specifically pointed out the use of the CD mat. But it DID come around - because she DOES care about how she listens to music - even if it is still from the CD.
 
For now...

 
Musicians are no different to anyone else when it comes to expectation bias.
At the end of the day, whether you use magic power cable or carbon fibre CD mats, the sound is no different, and you certainly don't suddenly develop the ability to hear ultrasonics!

 

[StanD]

   
Musicians are no different to anyone else when it comes to expectation bias.
At the end of the day, whether you use magic power cable or carbon fibre CD mats, the sound is no different, and you certainly don't suddenly develop the ability to hear ultrasonics!

It may have taken 30 years but he can hear Ultrasonics. So can the Easter Bunny.

 

[lamode]

  And the inability of the laser optics to read the CDs well enough. Which has to be helped by a mat... - remember, you have to rip CDs somehow to get them on the hard disk - it applies here too, regardless if you no longer listen to a CD player.
 

 
Oh dear lord... This HAS to be trolling. CD drives do a great job of retrieving CD data. If the drives were constantly misreading bits, then no CD-ROM based software would ever work. Please think before you post, it's getting tiresome. Anyway, CDs are pretty old technology now and becoming irrelevant - I switched to FLAC over 10 years ago.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
Musicians are no different to anyone else when it comes to expectation bias.
At the end of the day, whether you use magic power cable or carbon fibre CD mats, the sound is no different, and you certainly don't suddenly develop the ability to hear ultrasonics!

Sorry, you obviously did not understand it regarding the CD mats - the musician in question DEMANDED the CD mat - AFTER she heard it at some other place. If you think this is an expectation bias, you are dead wrong - she knows her singers as she works with them practically on daily basis - and CD without CD mat simply does not deliver. Plain and simple.
 
The only exceptions are CD players like turntables, where you put the CD disc upside down and read it from the top - and where the whole surface of the CD is being supported. There were Pioneer and Sony transports offering this in the past. Also, more recently, Yamaha produced some transport that also works well, despite precluding the use of any mat(s).
 
I have heard cases where CD mat did not change a thing - because the entire system was too poor to begin with. On quality equipment, it IS night and day.
 
No cable, let alone power cable, can have that much effect as a decent CD mat.  Before you equate these again, a blind AB with the use of help from a friend ( no, ABX comparators have not learned to place and remove CD mat on revolving disc for instantaneous ABX - yet ) should tell you a LOT about your system. If your CD player is not one of the exceptions mentioned above, If you can not hear anything, the equipment is too poor - and needs replacing. 
 
Cruel - but true.

 

[lamode]

  Sorry, you obviously did not understand it regarding the CD mats - the musician in question DEMANDED the CD mat - AFTER she heard it at some other place. If you think this is an expectation bias, you are dead wrong - she knows her singers as she works with them practically on daily basis - and CD without CD mat simply does not deliver. Plain and simple.
 
The only exceptions are CD players like turntables, where you put the CD disc upside down and read it from the top - and where the whole surface of the CD is being supported. There were Pioneer and Sony transports offering this in the past. Also, more recently, Yamaha produced some transport that also works well, despite precluding the use of any mat(s).
 
I have heard cases where CD mat did not change a thing - because the entire system was too poor to begin with. On quality equipment, it IS night and day.
 
No cable, let alone power cable, can have that much effect as a decent CD mat.  Before you equate these again, a blind AB with the use of help from a friend ( no, ABX comparators have not learned to place and remove CD mat on revolving disc for instantaneous ABX - yet ) should tell you a LOT about your system. If your CD player is not one of the exceptions mentioned above, If you can not hear anything, the equipment is too poor - and needs replacing. 
 
Cruel - but true.

 
Pure nonsense.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
Pure nonsense.

The sooner you will try it, the sooner you will know the truth.
 
Then is up to you; in case it does not "work", to invest in improvement of the gear - or soldier on with existing gear. Except in this case you lose on the enjoyment of your CDs - as well as credibility about your capability to hear "anything". It is OK to say "I do not wish/can not afford such equipment, but realize that CD mat works on better equipment" - "It does not provide any difference" is NOT OK.
 
Provided your CD player is not among those exceptions mentioned.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
Oh dear lord... This HAS to be trolling. CD drives do a great job of retrieving CD data. If the drives were constantly misreading bits, then no CD-ROM based software would ever work. Please think before you post, it's getting tiresome. Anyway, CDs are pretty old technology now and becoming irrelevant - I switched to FLAC over 10 years ago.

TRY it - before writing such a statement again.
 
The mechanism at work is a simple one - CD disc vibration. Of course, each CD player has error correction algorithm - which puts the about the last sequence of signal in case the signal is not being read right. What that algoritm is putting in in case of signal lost, is an approximation - not the correctly read data. Less triggering of this error correction = better sound. As simple as that.
 
CDs are, like it or not, at the present still the most widespread way for most people to listen to recorded music. Therefore are important - and worth playing back as well as possible.

 

[Head Injury]

Before you equate these again, a blind AB with the use of help from a friend ( no, ABX comparators have not learned to place and remove CD mat on revolving disc for instantaneous ABX - yet ) should tell you a LOT about your system.

Rip a CD with and without a CD mat, then ABX the resulting FLAC files with the Comparator plugin. Or hell, just compare the files in Audacity, or see if the checksums match. Easy. But, I'm sure there's some mystical reason for why this won't work as well as slowly switching CDs with a friend.

 

[analogsurviver]

  Rip a CD with and without a CD mat, then ABX the resulting FLAC files with the Comparator plugin. Or hell, just compare the files in Audacity, or see if the checksums match. Easy. But, I'm sure there's some mystical reason for why this won't work as well as slowly switching CDs with a friend.

Hey, guys, do you LISTEN to your music using comparators, Audacity, etc ?
 
I will do it once, just to satisfy your curiosity. Now, what IS required is a software that can rip CDs at maximum reading speed of 10x or less and does NOT switch, not even for a moment, to any higher speed. I usually use Nero 8 - because it is compatible with Yamaha CRW-F1E USB burner AND - important - supports Audio Master mode of burning the CDs - all under Windows 7. Later versions of Nero are not necessary back compatible, do not necessary support Yamaha burner on which I insist nomatterwhat - and original Nero 5 that came with Yamaha is no longer compatible with Win 7. I can still use it on a Win XP machine.
 
Any suggestions for the ripping software that satisfies all of the above, besides Nero 5 ( XP ) and Nero 8 ( Win 7 ) ?