24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded!
Jan 29, 2021 at 1:22 AM Post #6,016 of 7,175
Fact 1. Recording and mastering is made by using 24bit/96kHz-192kHz etc hi-res format and then dumbed down to CD quality

Fact 2. delta-sigma DACs use oversampling for reconstruct the lost information

Think logically and you can understand that high resolution audio is better.
Philips wanted 14 bits for the CD first.
The CD quality was only an economical decision.
 
Jan 29, 2021 at 3:02 AM Post #6,017 of 7,175
Wrong. But I don't think you are here to have a conversation, so I'll let you just be wrong.
 
Jan 29, 2021 at 11:20 PM Post #6,018 of 7,175
Audiophiles spend more time talking about inaudible sound than they do things they can actually hear... and that makes sense... Digital audio and modern electronics have solved the problems of fidelity to the level of human hearing. The only think left to sell you is equipment that improves things beyond your ability to hear.

I think I'm going to make this my signature. :)
 
Jan 29, 2021 at 11:22 PM Post #6,019 of 7,175
If you do fix my typo! Thanks!
 
Jan 30, 2021 at 12:22 PM Post #6,021 of 7,175
Fact 1. Recording and mastering is made by using 24bit/96kHz-192kHz etc hi-res format and then dumbed down to CD quality

Fact 2. delta-sigma DACs use oversampling for reconstruct the lost information

Think logically and you can understand that high resolution audio is better.
Philips wanted 14 bits for the CD first.
The CD quality was only an economical decision.
Frustratingly we are living the age of "alternative facts", but the real facts nevertheless exist.

In music production higher resolution offers benefits. Bigger dynamic range means you don't have to optimize the use of 16 bit dynamic range at every point and there is no fear of massive processing of sound to cumulate into audible levels of noise. Bigger bandwidth is perhaps less beneficial, but in some instances may offer something. Such as recording ultrasonic frequencies and playing them back at lower sample rate to make those frequencies audible to humans.

Consumers of music don't need higher resolution formats. When the music has been produced using higher resolution and the benefits have been gained, the end result is easy to optimize for CD. Music consumers do not need more than about 80 dB (~13 bits) worth of dynamic range (vinyl has 60 dB at best). There's simply limits of human hearing dictating these requirements. There are limits of listening environments. Say you have a very quiet room with 30 dB background noise level. 80 dB up from that is 110 dB. How much above that do you want to go? How much pain do you want your ears to feel? How much do you want to damage your hearing? How quiet sounds do you think you are able to hear temporarily when your ear have a been exposed to sound pressure levels of over 100 dB? Loud sounds rise the threshold of hearing. The dynamic range of hearing 120-130 dB, but not in one time! When your ears have rested for hours in silence you can hear sounds as quiet as 0 dB SPL (even below that around 3-4 kHz), but that's not the case when you blast music loud and your threshold of hearing has temporarily raised. That's why during the music listening session the dynamic range of your hearing is much less than 120-130 dB, about 70 dB. That's why you do not need more than 80 dB of dynamic range. It also explains why for many even vinyls have enough dynamic range.

Technically the more bits you have the more information you have, but the question is what information is relevant for human ears? Stuff we don't hear anyway can go. I don't hear ants farting so I don't care if CD can't produce sounds that quiet. I don't hear bats chirping so I don't care if CD can't produce those ultrasonic frequencies. Within the bandwidth and dynamic range specifications, digital audio doesn't loose information. DACs don't reconstruct "lost" information. They reconstruct the analog signal from the digital information. Oversampling is a "technically smart" way to do it. Within the bandwidth and dynamic range limitations digital audio can theoretically reproduce the original signal with 100 % accuracy. Higher resolution doesn't increase accuracy (you can't go above 100 %), but they push the limits further beyond the limits of human hearing. High resolution digital sound is not better for human ears. We can't hear the effect of more bits, because 44.1/16 already gets over our limits.

Philips wasn't crazy wanting 14 bits for the CD first. As I mentioned, about 13 bits is what's needed. CD specifications were not economical decisions as at first CD players were very price, althou the prices dropped fast. The decisions were for the most part technological. Fortunately at that point in time, four decades ago, digital technology was at a level were a "good enough" format could be created. CD has enough bandwidth and dynamic range. The real limitation of CD is the amount of audio channels. That's what CD really lacks, support for multichannel sound, but for stereo (and mono) sound it's not lacking anything sound-quality wise.

Hi-res consumer audio however is an economical decision. It's about milking audiophools out of their money. Making people buy their favourite albums again and again. Better masterings is all they can offer, but then again those better masterings sound just as good at CD quality so there is that...
 
Jan 30, 2021 at 12:57 PM Post #6,022 of 7,175
Frustratingly we are living the age of "alternative facts", but the real facts nevertheless exist.

In music production higher resolution offers benefits. Bigger dynamic range means you don't have to optimize the use of 16 bit dynamic range at every point and there is no fear of massive processing of sound to cumulate into audible levels of noise. Bigger bandwidth is perhaps less beneficial, but in some instances may offer something. Such as recording ultrasonic frequencies and playing them back at lower sample rate to make those frequencies audible to humans.

Consumers of music don't need higher resolution formats. When the music has been produced using higher resolution and the benefits have been gained, the end result is easy to optimize for CD. Music consumers do not need more than about 80 dB (~13 bits) worth of dynamic range (vinyl has 60 dB at best). There's simply limits of human hearing dictating these requirements. There are limits of listening environments. Say you have a very quiet room with 30 dB background noise level. 80 dB up from that is 110 dB. How much above that do you want to go? How much pain do you want your ears to feel? How much do you want to damage your hearing? How quiet sounds do you think you are able to hear temporarily when your ear have a been exposed to sound pressure levels of over 100 dB? Loud sounds rise the threshold of hearing. The dynamic range of hearing 120-130 dB, but not in one time! When your ears have rested for hours in silence you can hear sounds as quiet as 0 dB SPL (even below that around 3-4 kHz), but that's not the case when you blast music loud and your threshold of hearing has temporarily raised. That's why during the music listening session the dynamic range of your hearing is much less than 120-130 dB, about 70 dB. That's why you do not need more than 80 dB of dynamic range. It also explains why for many even vinyls have enough dynamic range.

Technically the more bits you have the more information you have, but the question is what information is relevant for human ears? Stuff we don't hear anyway can go. I don't hear ants farting so I don't care if CD can't produce sounds that quiet. I don't hear bats chirping so I don't care if CD can't produce those ultrasonic frequencies. Within the bandwidth and dynamic range specifications, digital audio doesn't loose information. DACs don't reconstruct "lost" information. They reconstruct the analog signal from the digital information. Oversampling is a "technically smart" way to do it. Within the bandwidth and dynamic range limitations digital audio can theoretically reproduce the original signal with 100 % accuracy. Higher resolution doesn't increase accuracy (you can't go above 100 %), but they push the limits further beyond the limits of human hearing. High resolution digital sound is not better for human ears. We can't hear the effect of more bits, because 44.1/16 already gets over our limits.

Philips wasn't crazy wanting 14 bits for the CD first. As I mentioned, about 13 bits is what's needed. CD specifications were not economical decisions as at first CD players were very price, althou the prices dropped fast. The decisions were for the most part technological. Fortunately at that point in time, four decades ago, digital technology was at a level were a "good enough" format could be created. CD has enough bandwidth and dynamic range. The real limitation of CD is the amount of audio channels. That's what CD really lacks, support for multichannel sound, but for stereo (and mono) sound it's not lacking anything sound-quality wise.

Hi-res consumer audio however is an economical decision. It's about milking audiophools out of their money. Making people buy their favourite albums again and again. Better masterings is all they can offer, but then again those better masterings sound just as good at CD quality so there is that...
I cannot discern AAC from CD but I can discern the benefit of multi-channel SACD.
 
Feb 1, 2021 at 5:30 AM Post #6,023 of 7,175
Technically the more bits you have the more information you have, but the question is what information is relevant for human ears? Stuff we don't hear anyway can go. I don't hear ants farting so I don't care if CD can't produce sounds that quiet. I don't hear bats chirping so I don't care if CD can't produce those ultrasonic frequencies. Within the bandwidth and dynamic range specifications, digital audio doesn't loose information. DACs don't reconstruct "lost" information. They reconstruct the analog signal from the digital information. Oversampling is a "technically smart" way to do it. Within the bandwidth and dynamic range limitations digital audio can theoretically reproduce the original signal with 100 % accuracy. Higher resolution doesn't increase accuracy (you can't go above 100 %), but they push the limits further beyond the limits of human hearing. High resolution digital sound is not better for human ears. We can't hear the effect of more bits, because 44.1/16 already gets over our limits.

Philips wasn't crazy wanting 14 bits for the CD first. As I mentioned, about 13 bits is what's needed. CD specifications were not economical decisions as at first CD players were very price, althou the prices dropped fast. The decisions were for the most part technological. Fortunately at that point in time, four decades ago, digital technology was at a level were a "good enough" format could be created. CD has enough bandwidth and dynamic range. The real limitation of CD is the amount of audio channels. That's what CD really lacks, support for multichannel sound, but for stereo (and mono) sound it's not lacking anything sound-quality wise.
Not meaning to detract from anything here as it is a good post, but my understanding is that 'technically' you don't get more information with more bits. 16 bits has as much information as 24 bits, just more noise (which is below the threshold of human hearing, hence why humans cannot hear a difference between the two). I bit has as much information as 16 bit or 24 bits, just a hell of a lot more noise. After all, SACDs are only 1 bit, but the massive noise with 1 bit is shifted to the ultrasonics and out of human range of hearing.

Interesting snippet with the 14 bits for CD. Back in 1982 with the first CD players, Phillips had an oversampling DAC (4x I think) while Sony's 16 bits did not. The general subjective consensus back then was that the Phillips CD player sounded better, along with the other CD player brands that used the Phillips DAC.
 
Feb 1, 2021 at 7:39 AM Post #6,024 of 7,175
Not meaning to detract from anything here as it is a good post, but my understanding is that 'technically' you don't get more information with more bits. 16 bits has as much information as 24 bits, just more noise (which is below the threshold of human hearing, hence why humans cannot hear a difference between the two). I bit has as much information as 16 bit or 24 bits, just a hell of a lot more noise. After all, SACDs are only 1 bit, but the massive noise with 1 bit is shifted to the ultrasonics and out of human range of hearing.
If I understand Nyquist's rule for maximum channel capacity, 24 bit will carry more information than 16 bit if the sampling rate is constant and the last 8 bits can be decoded properly (which can't be done if the system is too noisy).

I bet the 1bit SACD coding isn't using a 44kHz sample rate because that just wouldn't work.
 
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Feb 1, 2021 at 10:24 AM Post #6,025 of 7,175
Not meaning to detract from anything here as it is a good post, but my understanding is that 'technically' you don't get more information with more bits. 16 bits has as much information as 24 bits, just more noise (which is below the threshold of human hearing, hence why humans cannot hear a difference between the two). I bit has as much information as 16 bit or 24 bits, just a hell of a lot more noise. After all, SACDs are only 1 bit, but the massive noise with 1 bit is shifted to the ultrasonics and out of human range of hearing.

Well, I was speaking on theoretical point of view. In practise of course having full 24 bit worth of dynamic range is quite impossible. This only adds to the lunacy of 24 bit in consumer audio. 24 bits is more information than 16 bits. Could be text encoded. 24 bits is 50 % more text than 16 bits. Information theory doesn't care if its "noise" or not. However, for human ears its not more information, because we want music, not noise and there is also the question of what do we hear to begin with. Hopely you now understand what I mean. I simplified things a lot. I get what are after. Yes, bits just tell how much music has noise. in that sense no more information in 24 bit. Sorry, but you opened this can of worms.
 
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Feb 1, 2021 at 10:36 AM Post #6,026 of 7,175
If I understand Nyquist's rule for maximum channel capacity, 24 bit will carry more information than 16 bit if the sampling rate is constant and the last 8 bits can be decoded properly (which can't be done if the system is too noisy).

I bet the 1bit SACD coding isn't using a 44kHz sample rate because that just wouldn't work.

If you could use the 24 bit information fully it would mean the noise floor would drop much much lower so that extremely quiet sounds would not be masked by noise, but there is no benefit from this, because these sounds are too quiet to be heard in any practical listening scenario.

Yes, PCM at 1 bit doesn't work. 8 bits works as low quality audio, 16 is more than enough for high quality audio while 24 is lunacy.
 
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Feb 1, 2021 at 6:12 PM Post #6,027 of 7,175
If I understand Nyquist's rule for maximum channel capacity, 24 bit will carry more information than 16 bit if the sampling rate is constant and the last 8 bits can be decoded properly (which can't be done if the system is too noisy).

I bet the 1bit SACD coding isn't using a 44kHz sample rate because that just wouldn't work.
Of course not, an extremely wide band width is needed to shape the 1 bit noise.
 
Feb 1, 2021 at 6:14 PM Post #6,028 of 7,175
Well, I was speaking on theoretical point of view. In practise of course having full 24 bit worth of dynamic range is quite impossible. This only adds to the lunacy of 24 bit in consumer audio. 24 bits is more information than 16 bits. Could be text encoded. 24 bits is 50 % more text than 16 bits. Information theory doesn't care if its "noise" or not. However, for human ears its not more information, because we want music, not noise and there is also the question of what do we hear to begin with. Hopely you now understand what I mean. I simplified things a lot. I get what are after. Yes, bits just tell how much music has noise. in that sense no more information in 24 bit. Sorry, but you opened this can of worms.
Yes I understood what you mean, I was just being an annoying pedant.
 
Feb 2, 2021 at 3:07 PM Post #6,029 of 7,175
Yes I understood what you mean, I was just being an annoying pedant.

If speaking about real world, practical reality makes one an annoying pedant, then add me to that club. Do we get membership cards and a secret handshake?
 

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