24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded!

[Lazysnakes]

It has all the relevance in the world! It is the whole point! Of course no track ever has such quit sound that's why 96 dB of dynamic range is more than enough and 24 bits are competely unnecessary!

@gregorio didn't make this up. And he knows more about audio than the rest of us here together.
You, @Lazysnakes, however are clearly confused about the dB scale. Amplifying a signal by 10 dB means it gets 10 dB louder. Period. It has nothing to do with adding 2 sounds together, in which case indeed you can not just add the levels in dB's together to get the total level. And it is exacly because of this logarithmic scale that the relative level differences between different sounds in the signal stay constant (if expressed in dB's) after amplification or attenuation.

I don't understand but I concede

 

[Lazysnakes]

@Lazysnakes:
It could be that an 8 dB difference is perceived different at different levels, but it still remains an 8 dB difference.

#4 is so full of misconceptions and haziness that I wouldn't know where to start...
But I will pick one thing out:

A digital disc reader reads digital data, 0s and 1s, it does this correct (if it works, otherwise it's broken).
The digital data describes the signal. If the data is read correct no changes to the signal or it's dynamic range are made.
If the data is not read correct (and not re-read, corrected or whatever) then the result won't be dynamic compression but random artifacts (like a tic if one or two bits flipped) or total chaos (in case of many errors).

There are no CD readers that don't use decomposition algorithms since 2009. Before then there were uncompressed CDs with about SeVenTy FoRe MiNuTeS of voice on them. Today most are compressed to make it uncopyable. This decompression is nessicary or are there normal CDs still in use with 10 code instead of compressed code?

Why /how do they make money if copying them is so easy?

Also or further, if you have a CD with no compression and the same laser cut depth and size not blue ray then the CD with no compression will have a limit of a couple hours of sound instead of 6-24 hours most 2019 or latter CDs can keep with a modern compression algorithm.

 

[Davesrose]

There are no CD readers that don't use decomposition algorithms since 2009. Before then there were uncompressed CDs with about 20 minutes to an hour of voice on them. Today most are compressed to make it uncopyable. This decompression is nessicary or are there normal CDs still in use with 10 code instead of compressed code?

Why /how do they make money if copying them is so easy?

Where have you been getting your info? The thing about a disc standard is that they are created before the first players come to market, and they have to stick with the specifications (to stay compatible with all installed players) from there on out. Redbook CDs did not have any copy protection (data discs could implement tricks). In 2005, Sony/BMG did try implementing a form of copy protection with 52 artists (an extra data track recognized on Windows computers that acted like a DRM). They were sued and lost as the software was deemed malware.

Edit to your edit with reference to blu-rays. You do understand that DVDs and blu-rays are all seperate formats? The audio CD was a particular standard for audio (and has a run time of up to 74 minutes). DVD means digital versatile disc: it's a different file format than CD and can be a data system for computers, and also has a specific standard for DVD video players (that used the video compression of the era: MPEG-2). Blu-ray has a higher density and can hold more data than DVD...with the video disc standards, it also utilizes a newer video compression: MPEG-4 (which is more efficient and can help fit HD lossless audio movies on a disc). Now we have UHD movies on blu-ray. Because it's a different standard, you have to have a UHD player to be able to decode its video compression: h.265.

 

[bigshot]

The peak is 0dB. That is because that is the loudest something can be. 0dB at 24 bit is EXACTLY the same as 0dB at 16 bit. The difference is the sound below -96dB.

Dynamic range extends DOWNWARD, not upward. The peak is the peak. Only the stuff below the noise floor of the lower bitrate is different. I know math is hard. I'm lousy at it myself. But to cut to the chase, you would need to incur hearing damage to hear the entire dynamic range of a CD on the system in your living room. It would not be a pleasant experience at all.

16 bit is 16 bit. A CD is just a container for a 16 bit PCM file. It isn't applying compression that wasn't there in the original mix and mastering. And file compression isn't the same thing as dynamic compression at all. You can decrease the data rate of an audio file and create a smaller file size, but that wouldn't be kosher with the redbook standard that CDs have to adhere to. CDs are all 16/44.1.

 

[Brahmsian]

The studios and concert halls musicians record in have a noise floor of just under 30dB or so. Your living room where you listen to music is likely between 35 and 40dB.

Not that it makes much difference to your argument, but I wonder what the noise floor is when you're wearing closed headphones.

 

[bigshot]

Less, but probably still there. 20dB? Just a guess. Hard to measure that.

 

[Lazysnakes]

hearing damage from peaks with volume tuned for the average of the song to have a high peak doesnt let you hear a higher peak without clipping?

lets then explore the hearing damage opinion. say your hearing a drum-set at 1/100th second, exactly where it should be; 120db or 128db, why doesnt that damage hearing? well because hearing doesn't occur instant damage until you get to nearly 166 (a lightning bolt). even gunshots dont come close to it at over 150db.
drums tend to be the main piece to my music, and it is disappointing nothing in real life sounds close to most music I hear.

USING the LOWEST sound audible in the track is a ridiculous idea to set your volume.

SET your volume so that the loudest recorded sound sounds life like, and you can then have the rest be what it is 20-90db. this will let drums actually hit instead of sounding like, - lolol, mouse farts...

I distinctly disagree with the opinion hearing damage matters to everyone. as a bass head maybe it matters less.

further what of people with shell-shocked ears? what are they gonna DO, huh? listen to your opinion that music damages hearing instantly at 120 or even 135 db?
my friend cant hear bass less than 110db, period. 8 years in the military. he has a vehicle with nearly 155db, but can still understand everything I say.

this off-premise idea of hearing caps helps me understand the fundamental scientific bass-lessness (puns lol) of the argument:you can actually have too much dynamic range, ONE OF THE ONLY REMAINING rooms of improvement with audio, and a huge problem with speakers that are not dynamic.

I listen to hardtrap a lot, probably the most ridiculous High dynamic range and lowest dynamic range of any music produced. youtube caps this and makes it necessary to find 32 bit files, which always have an obvious immediate difference, but LUBLUBLUBLUBLU YEAH YEAH YEAHYEAYEAYEYHHEYAHEY Causes hearing damage of course it does, but not that much for a 11 minute listen who cares I want it.

its like this forum post about too many lumens: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...ng-too-bright-Lumens-race-getting-out-of-hand : IF I want it dont stop meh please.
music example: https://sound cloud.com/szunakachan/colossus
remove space after cloud, and then look up the original under a Japanese server (no-Japanese versions do not exist in 32 bit) should be very very VERY loud if done right.
I damaged my hearing and had an tempatic membrane recovery after hearing this over 150db in an auto, but that's okay. it clips on soundcloud, AND uh, you know why? it isnt 32 or even 24 bit.



P. S. the downward full caps is the ONLY reason I had to make this. also this is relevant, but not to my original point which I still believe in despite my resignation, this post brings up a different equally important view.

 

[bigshot]

The volume control on your amp doesn’t cause the digital audio file itself to clip. Your posts are beginning to fall below the threshold where they aren’t worth my time to read. I’ve patiently explained it to you. It’s all there. I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man. -Groucho

 

[Lazysnakes]

The volume control on your amp doesn’t cause the digital audio file itself to clip. Your posts are beginning to fall below the threshold where they aren’t worth my time to read. I’ve patiently explained it to you. It’s all there. I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man. -Groucho

OF course not, the audio itself is clipped.
I refuse to have a battle with someone with the hypocrisy to not even listen to the track, no matter your setup, the audio in that stream will clip because of soundcloud limitations because of lacking dynamic range, anything mixed with the original dynamic range will clip below 24 bit. -Grouchie

 

[Lazysnakes]

The volume control on your amp doesn’t cause the digital audio file itself to clip. Your posts are beginning to fall below the threshold where they aren’t worth my time to read. I’ve patiently explained it to you. It’s all there. I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man. -Groucho

Digital clipping


This PCM waveform is clipped between the red lines

In digital signal processing, clipping occurs when the signal is restricted by the range of a chosen representation. For example, in a system using 16-bit signed integers, 32767 is the largest positive value that can be represented. If, during processing, the amplitude of the signal is doubled, sample values of, for instance, 32000 should become 64000, but instead cause an integer overflow and saturate to the maximum, 32767. Clipping is preferable to the alternative in digital systems—wrapping—which occurs if the digital processor is allowed to overflow, ignoring the most significant bits of the magnitude, and sometimes even the sign of the sample value, resulting in gross distortion of the signal.

Directly bouroughed for fair use EDUACATIONAL PURPOUSESSES: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_(audio)

TheRe yUh gO.
duh doi.

weapons drawn: wIkiPeDiA

 

[Lazysnakes]

16 bit is 16 bit. A CD is just a container for a 16 bit PCM file. It isn't applying compression that wasn't there in the original mix and mastering. And file compression isn't the same thing as dynamic compression at all. You can decrease the data rate of an audio file and create a smaller file size, but that wouldn't be kosher with the redbook standard that CDs have to adhere to. CDs are all 16/44.1.

THIS BIT I didnt understand at all, thanks for the enlightenment.
my terminalogy for CD is compressed disc. all DVD/blueray formats are CDs, your semantics are revolutionizing mine, I apreasiate the leshon papa.

 

[chef8489]

THIS BIT I didnt understand at all, thanks for the enlightenment.
my terminalogy for CD is compressed disc. all DVD/blueray formats are CDs, your semantics are revolutionizing mine, I apreasiate the leshon papa.

Cds are not compressed dics. DVD and bluray are quite different from each other and from cds.

More you post the more evidence you know very little and are either trolling or talking out your butt.

 

[Lazysnakes]

There are no CD readers that don't use decomposition algorithms since 2009. Before then there were uncompressed CDs with about SeVenTy FoRe MiNuTeS of voice on them. Today most are compressed to make it uncopyable. This decompression is nessicary or are there normal CDs still in use with 10 code instead of compressed code?

Why /how do they make money if copying them is so easy?

Also or further, if you have a CD with no compression and the same laser cut depth and size not blue ray then the CD with no compression will have a limit of a couple hours of sound instead of 6-24 hours most 2019 or latter CDs can keep with a modern compression algorithm.

so ya man actually has original 74 minute CDs? wow. arent we living in the past. I have 800,000 songs of space on my 32GB phone SD card. lets not stand on ceremony here. move with the times.

 

[Lazysnakes]

Cds are not compressed dics. DVD and bluray are quite different from each other and from cds.

More you post the more evidence you know very little and are either trolling or talking out your butt.

hmm, its a combination of all three, like you, compared to what ther is to know about audio, like you, I know quite little, I am talking out of my buthead, and importantly, you are being trolled back after obviously fruitlessly trolling me for no reason. please STOP ALL CAPPING, STOP YOUR SEMANTICS, and contribute to the forum WITHOUT NAME CALLING.

pretty sure that's against the rules. Calling my a troll is name calling, especially when you just openly admitted there's other possibles.

play my sample track, let me know how that clipping sounds, K?

 

[chef8489]

so ya man actually has original 74 minute CDs? wow. arent we living in the past. I have 800,000 songs of space on my 32GB phone SD card. lets not stand on ceremony here. move with the times.

You are full of crap. even at 128kb/s mp3 is around 5mb. You are looking at les than 7k songs for 32gb. A cd in wave format is around 700mb uncompressed audio.
Let's just say you actually converted and compressed 800,000 songs to fit in a 32gb sd card they would sound awful. He'll 128gb sound awful. Maybe that's why you hear clipping.

You giving a link to a compressed file streaming is nothing like a cd, true flac, or true Redbook recording. Your point and example is moot. The quality is not true Redbook 16/44.1k