24 bit Vinyl rip or CD Remaster?
Mar 3, 2013 at 4:23 PM Post #91 of 171
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It would probably be great. The transducers in your system are probably doing more to hurt sound quality than the mediocre source you are using - getting transducers right is very, very hard. CD players and DAPs can be damn near sonically perfect at $30, but speakers for a moderate sized room will still be much less than perfect at $15,000.
 
Otoh, if you'd dump the MOR for some Miles Davis, Fatboy Slim or The Clash, that would make a bigger difference still...
 

 
Hahaha crazy pink octopuss thing lol.  Thanks for sharing.
 
Loves me some Miles Davis!
 
Mar 3, 2013 at 4:31 PM Post #92 of 171
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I will always be left to wonder how amazing a listen using the Sennheiser Orpheus headphones might be with my vinyl rips...ohhh lord please let me win the lottery lol.
 
Sick...just sick!
 
 

 
I've heard a good one at a meet (my understanding is that not all Orpheus rigs are exactly the same.) I liked it a lot, but I still liked the Cavalli LL + SR-009 better (heard it at the same meet.) It was a sighted listening experience and meets are short and a little noisy. Be aware that there are diminishing returns, and high prices don't necessarily mean that you will like what you hear over less expensive products.
 
I also feel that getting a decent rig with low levels of distortion + a decent equalizer to fine tune details can get you to eargasmic nirvana at accessible prices.
 
There is more out there than electrostatic headphones too: EC Super 7 + HD800 (from Anaxilus - he had some mods to his rig though - acoustically modded HD800 among other things) was incredible, LFF Paradox (acoustically modded T50RP orthos) where also reference level IMO... I think of well executed acoustical mods as roughly equivalent of well executed equalizer implementations with proper settings. Acoustical mods stay with the headphone and there are some benefits to that. Equalizers are external to the headphone, but are more flexible IMO.
 
Also, I feel none of these things (reference level rig, equalizers, acoustical mods,...) are replacements for a properly mastered recording. They all complement each other... As they say: garbage in, garbage out.
 
Mar 3, 2013 at 4:41 PM Post #93 of 171
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I've heard a good one at a meet (my understanding is that not all Orpheus rigs are exactly the same.) I liked it a lot, but I still liked the Cavalli LL + SR-009 better (heard it at the same meet.) It was a sighted listening experience and meets are short and a little noisy. Be aware that there are diminishing returns, and high prices don't necessarily mean that you will like what you hear over less expensive products.
 
There are diminishing returns and I feel that getting a decent rig with low levels of distortion + a decent equalizer to fine tune details can get you to eargasmic nirvana at accessible prices.
 
There is more out there than electrostatic headphones too: EC Super 7 + HD800 (from Anaxilus - he had some mods to his rig though - acoustically modded HD800 among other things) was incredible, LFF Paradox (acoustically modded T50RP orthos) where also reference level IMO... I think of well executed acoustical mods as roughly equivalent of well executed equalizer implementations with proper settings. Though acoustical mods stay with the headphone.

 
I envy you for had the chance to sample such headphones.  I'd be happy enough try out the HD800's.  I have heard some say they enjoyed the sound out of the HD800's just a bit better.
 
Mar 3, 2013 at 4:42 PM Post #94 of 171
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Hahaha crazy pink octopuss thing lol.  Thanks for sharing.
 
Loves me some Miles Davis!

 
Oops  - I thought you were British and would get the (actually affectionate) in-joke about Fleetwood Mac. The octo-head is from "The Mighty Boosh" - highly recommended if you get a chance to see it. (There are also jazz and punk oriented jokes.)
 
The other reason people might think that vinyl is better than CD is that most vinyl is pre-Loudness Wars:
 

 
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/Vinyls/VinylVsCD.html
 
 
So why do people persist in claiming against all scientific reason that vinyl is better?  Abuses that were difficult, expensive, or impossible in analogue can be done comparatively easily in digital.  Perhaps they erroneously blame the results of such abuse on the technology itself?
 
..processing of popular music CDs to give 'impact' is now widespread, and this is just the latest stage in a process that began with the advent first of disco and then of club and dance music, as well as the influence of genres of such as rap.  These led to a modern taste in sound which, even before the advent of digital processing, was to my ears bass heavy and artificially aggressive.
 
Further, either because modern sound engineers are so used to this sound that they consider it 'right' and always aim to recreate it, or simply from good but misapplied intentions such as reducing hiss from master tapes, when restoring for release on CD analogue recordings originally released on vinyl, instead of mere digitisation, excessive digital processing is often applied, destroying the 'balance' and/or dynamic range of the sound.  This has been widely discussed, and demonstrated experimentally by Jim Lesurf, as linked below.  For an aural example, listen to those Fleetwood Mac tracks which are on both their Greatest Hits CD (7599-25838-2) and their Rumours CD (7599-27313-2).  I think you will agree that those on Greatest Hits have an authentic sound that compares well with the original vinyl, whereas those on Rumours sound as though the speakers are behind heavy drapery  [size=inherit] muffled?, bass heavy?, lacking in transients?  [size=inherit][/size] and do not.[/size]
 
The more observant will have noticed that such abuse nonsensifies the concept of a flat FR, and, predictably, such a disregard of good standards has its cost.  Listeners' ears tire of an unbalanced sound much more quickly than a balanced one.  Someone my age may barely tolerate a couple of tracks of a CD with heavy digital processing, and younger people will also tire more quickly of it.
In fact, CDs are perfectly capable of conveying faithfully that 'warm' analogue or any other sound, most importantly any well-balanced sound, it's just that, sadly, as described above, too often those producing them deliberately choose otherwise.
 

 
...Note the use of a Mac oriented example by way of apology! (Really: everyone in the UK under 70 knows who Tony Harrison is and gets the Fleetwood Mac references!)
 
Mar 3, 2013 at 4:49 PM Post #95 of 171
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I envy you for had the chance to sample such headphones.  I'd be happy enough try out the HD800's.  I have heard some say they enjoyed the sound out of the HD800's just a bit better.

 
Check out if there are headphone meets happening near your area. It's a great way to experience for yourself different options out there. Specially TOTL stuff. You also get to meet people with similar interests and compare notes.
 
Mar 3, 2013 at 4:54 PM Post #96 of 171
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Originally Posted by scuttle /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
If you mean that it wouldn't stop you from "preferring" vinyl, this is probably so. But if you mean that a blind test wouldn't leave you unable to tell the difference between vinyl and CD, no. At least not if we added some noise to the output from the CD...
 
And, yes, an unbiased person would find this highly informative!  
And I do not say these things to make you feel bad, but because this forum is meant to be a source of objective fact. And as much as you guys may dislike it, there is no objective evidence for the superiority of vinyl, plenty of evidence for its inferiority - and even more evidence for the ability of people to bs themselves into Expensive Fetish Item A sounds better than Cheap Thang B when in fact they both sound the same and those same people cannot tell them apart when they have to so by sound alone.

Yup, but I'd argue most people also prefer digital.
 
http://www.jstor.org/stable/40319018
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Results showed that music major listeners rated the digital versions of live concert recordings higher in quality than corresponding analog versions. Participants gave significantly higher ratings to the digital presentations in bass, treble, and overall quality, as well as separation of the instruments/voices. Higher rating means for the digital versions were generally consistent across loudspeaker and headphone listening conditions and the four types of performance media.

 
Sceptoid:
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To summarize the science, digital is the superior reproduction format, but analog (particularly vinyl) offers a particular type of sound that some people prefer.

 
EETimes (Rich Pell):
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Hey, if you prefer the sound of vinyl that's great. However that subjective judgment shouldn't be confused with the objective facts, which show that CD/digital does a far more accurate job of reproducing the original musical signal.

 
Also google: wiki Myths (vinyl), for anyone interested.
 
 
That's the thing. You can rip vinyl and it sounds pretty much the same. But play a vinyl based on a digital file and it will sound completely different for all the reasons mentioned before.
 
Mar 3, 2013 at 6:10 PM Post #98 of 171
Maybe I just tend to prefer vinyl over cd's because the engineering/mastering of albums in the past simply outdoes the pro loudness mastered digital of today's average recording?  I do prefer to listen to classics rather than modern music.  With so many opinions and measurements that argue whether one format is better than the other to be found online, and without having years of professional studio experience I can only trust my ears. 
 
If I listen to vinyl I can enjoy listening to the whole album and not become bored or tired with what I'm hearing.  With all too many cd's I, my ears/brain, simply don't like what I hear.  I makes little difference to me what others think or whether the enjoyment is imagined or real.  To me, it is the way it is.  I personally dislike a great deal of modern music, though some shinning examples of modern albums around to be found these days, Tedeschi Trucks Band - Revelations being one great recent album.
 
If anyone wants to recommend some great remastered cd's, new or old albums, I'd enjoy trying to find them to have a listen.
 
Cheers,
TBB 
 
Mar 3, 2013 at 9:24 PM Post #101 of 171
Caution: this post contains opinions (not that any of the others didn't!)
 
 
This thread has gone pretty much the way the Vinyl vs CD, Analog vs Digital debate always goes.  Opinions are given anecdotally, technical data is presented, specific situations are cited, and opinions are again given anecdotally.  It ends the way it begins because the question of "Which is better" cannot really be answered by an individual listening to commercial releases.
 
The reason is, what is being compared isn't just Vinyl or Vinyl Rips vs CDs, it's the entire audio path from microphones to Vinyl or CD release, the playback mechanism, right down to your ears, and while some of that path is obviously common to both, the complete path to each release medium is unknown, not at all guaranteed to be identical, and may not even be related in terms of historic time, and may, in the case of those "remastered" projects, be intentionally changed/improved/ruined.  There are often different people involved with different ideas and goals.  In fact, we don't even know from what so-called "master" the project was "re-mastered" from.  It could be the original multitrack (not likely), the two-track master, a equalized master, a safety copy, or whatever is available.  It might have to be cleaned up with restoration processes and noise reduction.  Is it any wonder they end up sounding different?  
 
As to preference, what's being compared isn't just the sound of each, but the entire experience of playing the recording and listening to the sound.  The Vinyl is large, touchable, has visible grooves and bands, must be carefully cleaned and handled, and the process of playing it on a turntable couldn't be much more physical and visual.  You have to interact with it each time you want to change the play order or play the other side.  You have a 12" square piece of art to gaze at while listening.
 
The CD is uniformly shiny, has no visible grooves, bands, tracks.  It gets placed in a tray then vanishes.  We can't see it play, can't see the laser reading the pits, and only have to press a button on the remote to pick our tracks out.  We're distanced from the playback mechanism.  And the Jewel Box is small, the art is the size of a large postcard, and it's just not as physically involving.  
 
Enter the digital file played back from a computer or device, and we're removed physically even farther.  Nothing to handle at all, nothing to read, no visible art (ok, we can do album art on our 80" projection screen, but most of us don't). 
 
The total experience of each medium cannot be separated from the perceived sound quality without deliberate and controlled double-blind testing measures.  Humans just don't work that way.
 
To all of that, add the sonic differences because of entry unrelated production paths and personnel isolated in time if not space, and you don't have anything meaningful to compare.   You might assume they would all be the same, but nothing could be further from the truth, at least in the lion's share of recordings.  Quite simply, they are entirely different works of art.
 
Please understand, most of that difference you hear has nothing whatever to do with the fact that your'e listening to vinyl or bits.  We could detail the tech differences, and how technically inferior the vinyl process is (yes, sorry, there are WAY too many problems with it), but what's the point?  What I will say, and I think I've posted this before…here…somewhere…that I can't seem to find… if you actually feed identical source material to both vinyl and CD you end up with identical results except for the noise floor and wear issues… so long as you're very careful and don't tax the vinyl too hard, and you make darn sure your vinyl playback system is dead-nuts-on calibrated.  I've done it…twice…the results surprised even me.  
 
Since I've rambled, allow me to finish with this anecdote (again, could swear I've typed this out before).  I was in a vinyl-only record shop in a small coastal California town.  It was run by a very young couple, both in their 20s.  I walked around and browsed their mostly used stock, saw lots of familiar jackets, and had my own private introspective time, right up until I couldn't stand to listen to their background music any more.  It was vinyl, of course, they were militant vinylites.  But the stylus was worn to a nub, the record grooves sounded like they'd been played, unkindly, at least 1000 times, the distortion, wear, mistracking and noise was simply unbearable, though I knew and loved the music.  I simply couldn't stand it anymore, so I asked if the young man liked the sound quality he was playing.  He said something like, "Yeah, nothing rocks like vinyl".  I then ran down the list of what was wrong, more to help him than to criticize, but he blanched and became defensive.  I even told him his stylus was ruining what was left of his precious vinyl.  I had to leave, but not before I felt obligated to inform him that this kind of sound quality is exactly why we have CDs in the first place.
 
Now, don't think I'm a vinyl hater, I have a huge collection, and I do play the stuff.  It's just that after five decades trying to get the last ounce of quality out of vinyl, cleaning, calibrating, tweaking, when the CD arrived I stopped worrying about all that and enjoyed the music without the artifacts.  Because for me, distortion, noise, speed errors, ticks and pops…all of that gets between me and the suspension of disbelief. That's not saying I prefer a bad CD to a good record, but if we are going to compare apples and apples, digital apples wins for me.
 
Mar 3, 2013 at 9:42 PM Post #102 of 171
So I guess you just play a new record once to digitize it? At least that's how I'd do it followed by some editing to remove the more annoying artifacts of the vinyl playback mechanism..
 
Mar 4, 2013 at 12:46 AM Post #105 of 171
Actually, you're probably better off recording after two or three plays, provided your stylus is in good shape and your turntable is setup properly.
 
But I confess, I usually record on the first playback.
 

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