24 bit Vinyl rip or CD Remaster?
Mar 2, 2013 at 12:31 PM Post #46 of 171
...So what  is the explanation for the Jackson Escalation? I don't incompetence is credible.
 
(Btw - my new corned beef hash recipe is based on the use of crunchy potato croutons in addition to sloppy mashed stuff; I think it is going to work.)
 
Mar 2, 2013 at 2:51 PM Post #49 of 171
Quote:
 
(BTW, I still that that crack about "better sound quality than vinyl is capable of" is nonsense!)

 
 
If you define sound quality according to rational criteria such as dynamic range, accuracy , low distortion and low noise then there is no competition, the potential of CD is definitely (by an order of magnitude at least) superior to that of vinyl in all parameters that actually matter.
 
If you want to use some amorphous and mystical definition of sound quality or state a preference for the (possibly) euphonic deviations from accuracy that is of course your privilege.
 
Mar 2, 2013 at 3:31 PM Post #51 of 171
I am not going to debate the vinyl sound. But I'm just going to point out some distinction of digital that nobody has mentioned.
 
1. Analog will degrade over time even if it's on tape. There is basically no way to archive music with analog
2. I have listened to very good vinyl setup. It involves vacuum line to hold down the LP and a lot of other stuff like static guns, grounded carbon fiber brush. Hours of tweaking and calibrating of the arm and cartridge. And the cleaning. Did I mention the cost? There is no such thing as a quality entry level analog set up.
3. Good sound for the masses. There are music you just can't play without an expensive setup. Example; from Telarc, Eric Kunzel's 1812 overture. My $400 MC20 can't even track this sucker.
 
I used to just tape my music to preserve my LP. Now I am ripping albums that have not been released in digital to CDs and MP3s. My analog set up? It's for show only. I only play it when we have company and people are curious. Most of my music listening these days are from my Ipod.
 
Mar 2, 2013 at 3:38 PM Post #52 of 171
Quote:
I am not going to debate the vinyl sound. But I'm just going to point out some distinction of digital that nobody has mentioned.
 
1. Analog will degrade over time even if it's on tape. There is basically no way to archive music with analog

Records are actually not bad for archive, they don't degrade over time, unless you play them.
 
Quote:
3. Good sound for the masses. There are music you just can't play without an expensive setup. Example; from Telarc, Eric Kunzel's 1812 overture. My $400 MC20 can't even track this sucker.

Don't feel bad.  Nothing tracks those canon shots.  They were way over-cut and literally boot a stylus out of the groove. At one time I got a Shure V15-V to do it,  but it took special tweaking of the SMEIII arm, and I wouldn't have wanted to leave it that way. 
 
I have a recollection of about a 20dB peak difference vs the rest of the record, but that might be high.
 
Mar 2, 2013 at 4:22 PM Post #54 of 171
Quote:
 
I'm pretty sure AM is still around because it broadcast further than FM, at less cost. It doesn't have the quality, which is why AM is mostly talk radio. You are right though that people care more about content than quality.

Not exactly.  AM is bloody expensive to operate.  The entire tower is the antenna, and has to work against a copper wire ground system of radials that are silver soldered together at the base.  The ground system degrades over time, requiring maintenance.  By contrast, an FM antenna may get hit by lightning and come down as charcoal, but there's no ground system.  A great number of AM stations are directional, meaning more than one tower, sometimes up to a dozen, each with a tuning unit and ground system all driven by a custom built phasor.  The antenna systems are often less than stable, require periodic measurements done in the field to confirm legal operation.  There could be dozens or more monitor points, and someone has to visit each one with a field strength meter to measure them, often monthly.  If someone puts a new cell tower up in the area, it can drive the directional pattern out of legal limits, and that new tower has to be de-tuned.  All that for a station that doesn't command the audience of an FM stereo music station, and may not even be permitted to operate at night.  Locally produced talk formats are the most expensive to do, though small AMs use networked programming.  A 50Kw non-directional station slurps nearly double that power, placing it in a different class of electric utility customer.  And then there's the land.  Stations may occupy a dozen or more acres of land, which needs to be near to their service area, which now conflicts with residential properties, wet land restrictions, etc.  You can't just stick them in a corn field.  FMs can go on top of tall buildings in the middle of their service area.  FM towers, if stand alone, are also simpler to share and rent out space for other tenants like two-way systems, cells, and other broadcasters.  AM towers usually have "hot" bases insulated off ground by a huge porcelain insulator, so to cross that with anything requires a special isolation transformer making adding other services to the tower costly.  The other slight advantage an FM may have is antenna gain.  An FM can get an effective power increase by a gain antenna which can double or triple the effective power over what comes from the transmitter, where an AM is stuck with whatever efficiency factor the tower has.  5Kw for an AM is just 5Kw, but a 5Kw FM can behave like 20Kw. So an FM may consume less electricity to hit its licensed power if an gain antenna is used. 
 
Yes, AMs can go farther than FM, particularly with high power at night, but not always.  They are also impacted by ground conductivity, so in some areas of the country 1Kw covers 20 miles, in others, half that.  But stations of either kind get no advertising benefit from fringe coverage.  Once a station covers it's primary area, it there's no real financial advantage to covering farms and bodies of water for 100 miles.  
 
AMs are more expensive to operate than FMs on a per-watt basis.  
 
How's that for running the thread off the rails?  Sorry, everyone. Hope you enjoyed the ride.
 
edit: my usual stupid typos.
 
Mar 2, 2013 at 5:45 PM Post #55 of 171
Quote:
 
Yes, AMs can go farther than FM, particularly with high power at night, but not always.  They are also impacted by ground conductivity, so in some areas of the country 1Kw covers 20 miles, in others, half that.  But stations of either kind get no advertising benefit from fringe coverage.  Once a station covers it's primary area, it there's no real financial advantage to covering farms and bodies of water for 100 miles.  
 
AMs are more expensive to operate than FMs on a per-watt basis.  
 
How's that for running the thread off the rails?  Sorry, everyone. Hope you enjoyed the ride.
 

 
That's a pretty damn good digression and makes extremely curious about the economics of AM radio - thank you.
 
Mar 2, 2013 at 6:34 PM Post #56 of 171
Quote:
 
That's a pretty damn good digression and makes extremely curious about the economics of AM radio - thank you.

You ain't the only one....AM station owners are pretty curious about their own economics.  And now they, and FMs too, have the opportunity to spend a cubic car-load of cash to add HD signals...which still have no significant audience.  
 
 

 
Mar 2, 2013 at 7:21 PM Post #57 of 171
Off-topic tech details?
 
What're the mods going to do, move the thread to Sound Science?  
biggrin.gif

 
Mar 3, 2013 at 2:17 AM Post #59 of 171
Quote:
Not exactly.  AM is bloody expensive to operate.  The entire tower is the antenna, and has to work against a copper wire ground system of radials that are silver soldered together at the base.  The ground system degrades over time, requiring maintenance.  By contrast, an FM antenna may get hit by lightning and come down as charcoal, but there's no ground system.  A great number of AM stations are directional, meaning more than one tower, sometimes up to a dozen, each with a tuning unit and ground system all driven by a custom built phasor.  The antenna systems are often less than stable, require periodic measurements done in the field to confirm legal operation.  There could be dozens or more monitor points, and someone has to visit each one with a field strength meter to measure them, often monthly.  If someone puts a new cell tower up in the area, it can drive the directional pattern out of legal limits, and that new tower has to be de-tuned.  All that for a station that doesn't command the audience of an FM stereo music station, and may not even be permitted to operate at night.  Locally produced talk formats are the most expensive to do, though small AMs use networked programming.  A 50Kw non-directional station slurps nearly double that power, placing it in a different class of electric utility customer.  And then there's the land.  Stations may occupy a dozen or more acres of land, which needs to be near to their service area, which now conflicts with residential properties, wet land restrictions, etc.  You can't just stick them in a corn field.  FMs can go on top of tall buildings in the middle of their service area.  FM towers, if stand alone, are also simpler to share and rent out space for other tenants like two-way systems, cells, and other broadcasters.  AM towers usually have "hot" bases insulated off ground by a huge porcelain insulator, so to cross that with anything requires a special isolation transformer making adding other services to the tower costly.  The other slight advantage an FM may have is antenna gain.  An FM can get an effective power increase by a gain antenna which can double or triple the effective power over what comes from the transmitter, where an AM is stuck with whatever efficiency factor the tower has.  5Kw for an AM is just 5Kw, but a 5Kw FM can behave like 20Kw. So an FM may consume less electricity to hit its licensed power if an gain antenna is used. 
 
Yes, AMs can go farther than FM, particularly with high power at night, but not always.  They are also impacted by ground conductivity, so in some areas of the country 1Kw covers 20 miles, in others, half that.  But stations of either kind get no advertising benefit from fringe coverage.  Once a station covers it's primary area, it there's no real financial advantage to covering farms and bodies of water for 100 miles.  
 
AMs are more expensive to operate than FMs on a per-watt basis.  
 
How's that for running the thread off the rails?  Sorry, everyone. Hope you enjoyed the ride.
 
edit: my usual stupid typos.


I stand, or rather sit, corrected. Thanks for bringing your knowledge to the discussion. I'm always happy to learn . . . probably another difference between the "sound science" forum and the rest
beerchug.gif

 
Mar 3, 2013 at 3:04 AM Post #60 of 171
Just my 2 cents here, but if I have a listen to the same version of Fleetwood Mac's - Rumours album as an eac cd rip, and then as a 24/96 vinyl rip, my ears much prefer the vinyl rip.  Crackles and pops and all.  Vinyl rips simply have a more organic sound, if that makes any sense.  Much more involving to listen to.  
 
Of course many modern recordings are all about loudness and compression.  Sad.  My mind boggles at the fact that many will spend so much money on pmp's and Dr. Dre's (fart cannons lol) and listen to iTunes tracks or worse with them.  
 
iTunes = the process cheese-ification of music in my opinion.  256 kbps aac is better than 128 kbps mp3 and all, but nothing compared to a 1000 kbps flac cd rip, and even less compared to a 3000 kbps vinyl rip.
 
Even if you choose to listen with Dre's, the difference should be noticeable.  Honestly, if you can't hear the difference, as I've read many say they don't, you have been listening to music way too loud for way too long...or maybe your ears just suck 
size]

 
Now back to listening to those lovely lossless rips.
 
Keep on loving the frequencies.
 
 

 
Cheers,
TBB
 

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