[bifcake]

Looks like I missed it this year. Too bad. I was really hoping to catch it.

 

[lextek]

Quote:

Originally posted by bifcake I've listened to the 580's side by side with 600's using Headroom Max and headroom Monoblock something or other. That top of the line amp they have. The source was a Krell CD player. I can honestly say that there was NO difference between the two. After hearing that demo, I can unequivocally state the following: a) There is NO difference between 580 and 600 phones b) The difference between the headroom max and that monoblock amp is so slight that I wouldn't pay $300 more for it, much less $1500 more. c) Changing cables on the senn phones makes no difference either. I spent a lot of time comparing since most of the posts I read here, on headwize and other reviews consistently state the all of the above things are worth doing. So, I was actually TRYING to hear the difference, and there just wasn't any.

Wow. I'm surprised you didn't hear the difference between the Max and Blockhead. I sure did. I also have heard difference in cables too.

 

[dparrish]

Quote:

Originally posted by bifcake You know, I wonder if the differences you heard are just normal differences you'd hear as a batch variance. In other words, I wonder if you compared two sets of HD580's side by side, you'd wind up liking one pair over the other due to normal production variances. Even Sennheiser claims that the differences between 580's and 600's are in tighter bass and better balance due to better driver matching, rather than detail in highs. That's why I wonder if one pair was broken in while the other one wasn't or if it's just a normal production variance. PS. In my opinion, placing 580's in class B and 600's in class A is whacky. Even if there is a difference, which I don't believe there is, it's not great enough to cause differences in classifications.

I wish I could agree with you about the differences in batch variance. But I've heard many different HD600s (a whole slew of them at the HeadRoom show) and I must say that they have a very consistent sound to my ears--more detailed than the HD580s, from top to bottom. The high frequencies are the ones that stood out immediately to me, but in reality there's just a tad more definition (refinement) to the entire spectrum of sound.

I would agree with Jude that if you based your comparison on the earlier HeadRoom meet, you may not have been getting all of the sound. Even at the recent Dallas show I didn't feel that the amp distribution system was letting us hear the "whole truth" (though I'm sure it was an improvement and as good as Tyll could do).

Again, as others have quoted, the Stereophile Class A ranking means it's the best in it's category, regardless of price. Class B means it is one of the best, but there are minor deficiencies.

I do agree with Kelly that the rankings are not nearly as inclusive as they ought to be, particularly with regards to headphone amps and equipment. Let's face it, though--most of their readership is probably not as interested in headphone-based systems as we are.

Finally, they're BOTH really good headphones. I have both and I enjoy both!

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by dparrish Again, as others have quoted, the Stereophile Class A ranking means it's the best in it's category, regardless of price. Class B means it is one of the best, but there are minor deficiencies.

So if the Max and HD600 are "best in category", what then are the Orpheus and BlockHead?

 

[dparrish]

Quote:

Originally posted by dparrish . I do agree with Kelly that the rankings are not nearly as inclusive as they ought to be, particularly with regards to headphone amps and equipment. Let's face it, though--most of their readership is probably not as interested in headphone-based systems as we are.

As I said above, I agree that there should be more reviews in this section. But I don't think the editors of Stereophile anywhere claim to try and audition every piece of equipment out there. There's just too much of it. Their rankings are based on what they've heard (and what they choose to review). This is certainly true not only of the headphone section but of other sections as well. For instance, my Classe CA201 is nowhere to be found on their amp list (at least last year's--I haven't seen this year's), but this doesn't mean it didn't make the grade, only that they haven't gotten around to auditioning it.

As I said earlier, the headphone list would certainly benefit from a more inclusive list of amps/headphones auditioned, but I believe their short list to be based on priorities of their readership. My guess would also be that their rankings (for headphone-based systems) are somewhat based on their auditioning of speaker-based systems as well.

Finally, ANY review is going to be a subjective thing and relative not only to a definate set of criteria the reviewer has in mind but also to other known pieces of a similar type.

The bottom line for me as a consumer, is that this list represents SOME of the better possibilities out there for me to investigate. When I was investigating a speaker upgrade, for example, I listened to a number of different speakers that made the list, as well as some that were not listed. What I discovered was that the Stereophile choices were good ones--although I certainly had my preferences for some over others, even at the same rating level.

I think we would all agree that listening is a VERY subjective thing. We all have varying degrees of hearing (I certainly don't hear soft sounds as well as my wife), our ears are shaped differently (possibly effecting how we hear sounds), and we have different levels of expertise/training in listening. I certainly hear more critically now than when I was a teenager/young adult.

Just because the B&W Nautilus's and Wilson speakers are put in the same category and a person likes one much better over the other doesn't necessarily mean that the person reviewing it needs to get his/her hearing checked. There are different flavors for different tastes!

Do the Orpheus, Blockhead, and Max all belong in the same category? Probably not, but they are all three among the best amps out there and are deserving of an audition, if I'm interested and can afford them. This is what the Stereophile list was intended to do, I think. Those of us on this forum would certainly like to see more headphone-related items included in the lists. Perhaps we all should email John Atkinson and put forth our requests.

 

[Anders]

Kelly, I agree with all of your arguments. I didn't mean that all the ratings are OK. My only point is that is becomes even worse with value for money ratings. I have experience of the UK magazines Hifi-Choice and What Hifi. You get a lot of Recommended and Best buys, but it is nearly impossible to get an impression of the differences between price groups. They test mostly low and mid-fi components and I suspect that many readers like to buy a five star / best buy component for 250 without knowing too much about how it compares to the best. I think a D rating is more informative.
I suspect that Stereophile has some problems with their ratings. The Orpheus is an obvious example. If that is class A, can the Max/HD600 also be? I have heard the Orpheus and have the MOH/HD600/Clou myself, and the difference is not negible. How broad could class A be if it is the absolutely best components that set the level? An indication of that they have a problem is the recently introduced class A+. I suspect they would give the Orpheus an A+. Maybe, it could be better with a new class A+ used consistently, but now they seem a little confused.
The level for class A also seems to differ between component groups. I have heard few of the components in the turntable / cartridge / phono preamp group but the price level of class A is indeed very high. Just for fun I will put together a vinyl system in pure Stereophile class A with the cheapest possible class A components. It becomes:
VPI TNT table - $6000
Rega RB900 tonarm - $995
Lyra Helicon cartridge - $1995
Linn Linto phono preamp - $1600
The sum is $10590 (note that the three last components are considerably cheaper than the typical class A).

I am sorry about your previous life as a game reviewer. To be disliked by some readers or manufacurers, I assume this is a part of the game. But also become critisised by colleagues!!!
Yes, many US reveiws are one product reviews, with little or inadequate comparison, and overwhelmingly positive. I suspect that there is a merging of products descriptions, marketing and reviewing. Where reviewing means not much more than saying that I have heard this product, a technical description based on munufacturer information, and some positive impressions.
Just to pick two examples. The Soundstage review of the new MOH where it mosltly was compared to the old MOH. Why not the Headmaster, Earmax Pro or micro-Zotl? The other example it the Stereophile review of Blockhead compared to memories of Orpheus heard some years ago and the Max. This is a very special design, but why not compare it to the cheaper Ear amp?
There seem to be more comparative reviews in Europe, but also these have limitations. They are nearly always between previously unreviewed products, they don't include X, Y and Z because those were reviewed a few months or years before.
However, some German magazines have an absolute rating system that is very fine graded. One should take these results with at least one grain of salt, but on the positive side it forces the reviewer so say someting about how a product compares to others.

 

[bifcake]

What I think they should do is establish a reference. For example, I think everyone would agree that the Orpheus would make a terrific reference system. Once a reference is established, all subsequent reviews would be compared to the reference. So, the HD600/Max combo would be compared to the Orpheus. The 590/Xcan combo would be compared to the 600/Max and the Orpheus, and so on. I think that would give readers a very good base line and it would also address the value for dollar issue.

 

[kelly]

dparrish
My point was... imagine that you have never heard any headphone amplifier. Would you feel confident purchasing the Max for $1600+ based on the Class A rating on Stereophile knowing that they didn't really compare it to anything?

Of course most of this is moot for me. I'm on a scavenger hunt of sorts to hear as many headphone amps as I can. I have an internal personal ranking that no one else has to adhere to. It's fun.

I do agree that there needs to be a reference point. There needs to be an absolute best so that you know where new products rank when you hear them. For me, when I heard the Wadia 270/27ix that I keep referring to, it was the high watermark. Knowing how close I get to that tells me where I am when I hear a different source. I feel the same way about a few other things and yes, the Orpheus is now included as a personal reference for me.

Maybe that's what they're doing now and the BlockHead is so far their reference--but the pessmist in me thinks they'll not likely include the Orpheus and they'll not likely review headphone amps at all on a regular basis.

And once again... this is why I appreciate you guys so much. I feel very fortunate to have run into a group of people so passionate and knowledgable. Magazines, frankly, are overrated. They let people like me write magazines. They even let people dumber than me write them. Being a magazine writer doesn't make your opinions more valid and a review published in a magazine is not more valid than one posted on HeadFi. I don't mind having discussions like this one but the truth is that I'm not really all that upset about the fact that Stereophile doesn't meet my needs because you guys do. Thanks for that.

 

[bifcake]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly dparrish Magazines, frankly, are overrated. They let people like me write magazines. They even let people dumber than me write them. Being a magazine writer doesn't make your opinions more valid and a review published in a magazine is not more valid than one posted on HeadFi. I don't mind having discussions like this one but the truth is that I'm not really all that upset about the fact that Stereophile doesn't meet my needs because you guys do. Thanks for that.

I completely agree with you. That's why I feel that *I* should be the one to review audio products since MY opinions ARE valid and frankly, are the only ones that count. :0