~$200 DAC+AMP
Dec 10, 2019 at 1:51 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 16

Awsan

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Hey everyone (I know I know I can't start talking about the dac+amp before I pick my headphones but just please roll with it)

I have been reading and watching all around and I am lost as my problem is the DAC will be used for both music+gaming(Sound stage and accurate imaging for FPS mainly and not immersion specifically) and I can't seem to find any info regarding the latter at all when reading DAC reviews.

I have narrowed it to these DACs [SMSL M100, Modi 3, D30/D10 (Honorable mentions Mx3/Dx3 pro)] and what AMP would you pair with those.

Open for a lot of options, and was going to get either an shp9500 or x2hr for strictly gaming (Comfort + Sound stage) and don't care for how they sound with EDM and another closed back maybe? for EDM and see how it goes from there.
 
Dec 10, 2019 at 2:42 PM Post #2 of 16
Hey everyone (I know I know I can't start talking about the dac+amp before I pick my headphones but just please roll with it)

I have been reading and watching all around and I am lost as my problem is the DAC will be used for both music+gaming(Sound stage and accurate imaging for FPS mainly and not immersion specifically) and I can't seem to find any info regarding the latter at all when reading DAC reviews.

That's because the differences are so minute unless there's a real flaw, and reviewers have to test them back to back. Apart from voltage level that affects noise levels and perception of quality which even then has to be tested with several amps (ie lower voltage can mean lower noise out of the DAC, but the amp's preamp compensating can mean more noise depending on the amp) it's really hard to flesh imaging differences on speakers, let alone headphones that don't have the same "both ears hear both speakers in-room" physics as speakers.

Speaking of hearing two speakers in-room, well, there's Crossfeed for stereo music and virtual surround for games and movies. You might be better off using a soundcard than a conventional two channel DAC that merely relies on channel separation and a flat response, more so if the games you play don't have built-in headphone audio. I doubt that being a problem nowadays since even Total War just updated recently and now Shogun II and Rome II have it along with Three Kingdoms, and most FPS games either had it for years or will get them soon.


I have narrowed it to these DACs [SMSL M100, Modi 3, D30/D10 (Honorable mentions Mx3/Dx3 pro)] and what AMP would you pair with those.

I'd choose more based on what kind of digital transmission you're going to use.

If you want to keep your options open get one with SPDIF inputs so it can work with a soundcard's DSP or a motherboard with a DSP by Creative (or an Asus board with Xonar audio), then read up on whether either of them has an obvious flaw. Past that just compare your motherboard's DSP if it hast one that isn't the basic Realtek that only works on movies vs native in-game headphone audio vs maybe a soundcard if you really want to try one.


Open for a lot of options, and was going to get either an shp9500 or x2hr for strictly gaming (Comfort + Sound stage) and don't care for how they sound with EDM and another closed back maybe? for EDM and see how it goes from there.

If you get a standalone DAC with several types of digital inputs just pick a good amp with low THD+N and a lot of power that will work with many headphones in case you get one that has relatively low sensitivity or high impedance.
 
Dec 10, 2019 at 6:36 PM Post #3 of 16
That's because the differences are so minute unless there's a real flaw, and reviewers have to test them back to back. Apart from voltage level that affects noise levels and perception of quality which even then has to be tested with several amps (ie lower voltage can mean lower noise out of the DAC, but the amp's preamp compensating can mean more noise depending on the amp) it's really hard to flesh imaging differences on speakers, let alone headphones that don't have the same "both ears hear both speakers in-room" physics as speakers.

Speaking of hearing two speakers in-room, well, there's Crossfeed for stereo music and virtual surround for games and movies. You might be better off using a soundcard than a conventional two channel DAC that merely relies on channel separation and a flat response, more so if the games you play don't have built-in headphone audio. I doubt that being a problem nowadays since even Total War just updated recently and now Shogun II and Rome II have it along with Three Kingdoms, and most FPS games either had it for years or will get them soon.




I'd choose more based on what kind of digital transmission you're going to use.

If you want to keep your options open get one with SPDIF inputs so it can work with a soundcard's DSP or a motherboard with a DSP by Creative (or an Asus board with Xonar audio), then read up on whether either of them has an obvious flaw. Past that just compare your motherboard's DSP if it hast one that isn't the basic Realtek that only works on movies vs native in-game headphone audio vs maybe a soundcard if you really want to try one.




If you get a standalone DAC with several types of digital inputs just pick a good amp with low THD+N and a lot of power that will work with many headphones in case you get one that has relatively low sensitivity or high impedance.

First of all thanks a lot for the Info but is DAC/AMP not recommended in this situation? should I get an audio card with SPDIF and connect the gaming headphones to it and SPDIF to DAC/AMP for music? (Or a mobo with good audio + spdif)
and for the DAC I want audio quality strictly I dont mind what ever connections and functions it has as long as its the best sounding one between those and for strictly gaming SHP9500 or X2hr? and I am not sure about those AMPS i am lost.

Thanks
 
Dec 10, 2019 at 9:10 PM Post #4 of 16
First of all thanks a lot for the Info but is DAC/AMP not recommended in this situation?

Not all that essential if your primary goal is directional audio for gaming. DACs don't have the kind of processing for that - for the most part even if you blow $6,000 on a Wadia DAC what it will do for that situation is not mess up a headphone audio signal that already has virtual surround processed in to give you directional cues, so really the DSP is more important.

Even if your games have built in headphone audio the DAC isn't all that necessary. You'll need it more if you want to be sure you're sending a clean 2V signal into an amp, and you only need the amp if you need more clean power to drive a headphone.

Given the headphones you listed as under consideration, any decent soundcard can drive those since they have high enough sensitivity to get loud without getting a lot of distortion for any distortion and noise to be noticeable when you're processing all other stimuli in games that have mp3 audio anyway. There can be some gains for music playback since (preferably) you're not distracted by anything, but there's no guarantee that you can detect those differences especially if you don't sit back and just listen (ie you're browsing while listening). Even decent gaming motherboards can handle those Philips headphones well enough, just that some can have a high output impedance and it's hard to tell which one does unless you test it yourself (by contrast even soundcards that have a high output impedance tend to list it somewhere, just not prominently, like old pre-SB-X SoundBlasters).


should I get an audio card with SPDIF and connect the gaming headphones to it and SPDIF to DAC/AMP for music?

If your games have built in headphone audio and your motherboard has a DSP and a decent driver circuit, and it sounds fine on the SHP9500S or X2HR (whichever you get), then no.

If you think you're losing because somebody has better DSP, I'm going to tell you no. If you want to try it out anyway, then sure, compare the native in-game headphone audio, motherboard DSP, and soundcard, pick what's best for you; if it doesn't make a difference to your fragging or you can't detect any difference to begin with, remember I said it wasn't essential.

If you get a headphone that has lower than 96dB/1mW sensitivity or higher than 250ohm impedance (or much lower than 32ohms) and you want to listen to music, then sure, there's a point to getting an amp along with a DAC-HPamp, whether you hook it up to your mobo (assuming it has a DSP that works on games, and not the bundled Realtek Dolby Headphone like on laptops that only works on movies).


(Or a mobo with good audio + spdif)

Depends. Does your motherboard have a DSP and SPDIF?

That said, whether it does or not, upgrading to a motherboard with better VRMs and VRM heatsinks can have a bigger effect on your fragging assuming you have good CPU cooling overhead and can get even higher clocks than what you get now, since that increases your framerate. That assumes you're already on a 120hz or higher monitor.


and for the DAC I want audio quality strictly I dont mind what ever connections and functions it has...

Well if it only has USB then it won't matter if you get a soundcard or if your motherboard has DSP - using USB will bypass the DSP chip rendering it useless and you're stuck with the built-in headphone audio in your games (if they have them, although now that even Total War has it, I'd be surprised if there are still FPS games that don't).


...as long as its the best sounding one between those...

OK...get this.
http://www.wadia.com/en-us/products/di322

Oh wait, over budget. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overbudget.

If you want the absolute best surround experience ditch the headphones and work around having to walk around the rear satellites on these, making sure that they're all positioned equidistant to your head. Still overbudget but hey, it's real surround.
https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Sur...10E5GPBPM8W&psc=1&refRID=9PXA4BBHR10E5GPBPM8W


...and for strictly gaming SHP9500 or X2hr?...

X2HR. Tried the X2 and it has good enough imaging; judging by what people say about the SHP9500S, imaging size isn't that much of an improvement over Grado Prestige series.


and I am not sure about those AMPS i am lost.

Those can get loud enough without bad distortion that would be noticeable on games.

In terms of maxing out power ceiling and damping factor by making sure you have a low output impedance amp for music, well, those amps can help. Just that there's a chance you might not be able to hear much of a difference unless (or even if) you crank it up.

Honestly if you're willing to get a lot of equipment then just save up for a better DAC-HPamp for music and either get an Audio Technica ATH-AD900X for now, and if you don't like it get something else for music along with the DAC-HPamp later; or get an HD800S later and use it for both gaming and music (but maybe use a tube amplifier for it).
 
Dec 10, 2019 at 9:55 PM Post #5 of 16
Hey everyone (I know I know I can't start talking about the dac+amp before I pick my headphones but just please roll with it)
I have been reading and watching all around and I am lost as my problem is the DAC will be used for both music+gaming(Sound stage and accurate imaging for FPS mainly and not immersion specifically) and I can't seem to find any info regarding the latter at all when reading DAC reviews.
I have narrowed it to these DACs [SMSL M100, Modi 3, D30/D10 (Honorable mentions Mx3/Dx3 pro)] and what AMP would you pair with those.
Open for a lot of options, and was going to get either an shp9500 or x2hr for strictly gaming (Comfort + Sound stage) and don't care for how they sound with EDM and another closed back maybe? for EDM and see how it goes from there.
Topping DX3 Pro or Xduoo XD-05 DAC/amp.
 
Dec 10, 2019 at 9:58 PM Post #6 of 16
First of all thanks a lot for the Info but is DAC/AMP not recommended in this situation? should I get an audio card with SPDIF and connect the gaming headphones to it and SPDIF to DAC/AMP for music? (Or a mobo with good audio + spdif)
and for the DAC I want audio quality strictly I dont mind what ever connections and functions it has as long as its the best sounding one between those and for strictly gaming SHP9500 or X2hr? and I am not sure about those AMPS i am lost.

Thanks
If your big on playing FPS gaming, then just get an external sound card.
Creative Labs Sound BlasterX G5 or G6.
 
Dec 11, 2019 at 6:00 AM Post #7 of 16
Not all that essential if your primary goal is directional audio for gaming. DACs don't have the kind of processing for that - for the most part even if you blow $6,000 on a Wadia DAC what it will do for that situation is not mess up a headphone audio signal that already has virtual surround processed in to give you directional cues, so really the DSP is more important.

Even if your games have built in headphone audio the DAC isn't all that necessary. You'll need it more if you want to be sure you're sending a clean 2V signal into an amp, and you only need the amp if you need more clean power to drive a headphone.

Given the headphones you listed as under consideration, any decent soundcard can drive those since they have high enough sensitivity to get loud without getting a lot of distortion for any distortion and noise to be noticeable when you're processing all other stimuli in games that have mp3 audio anyway. There can be some gains for music playback since (preferably) you're not distracted by anything, but there's no guarantee that you can detect those differences especially if you don't sit back and just listen (ie you're browsing while listening). Even decent gaming motherboards can handle those Philips headphones well enough, just that some can have a high output impedance and it's hard to tell which one does unless you test it yourself (by contrast even soundcards that have a high output impedance tend to list it somewhere, just not prominently, like old pre-SB-X SoundBlasters).




If your games have built in headphone audio and your motherboard has a DSP and a decent driver circuit, and it sounds fine on the SHP9500S or X2HR (whichever you get), then no.

If you think you're losing because somebody has better DSP, I'm going to tell you no. If you want to try it out anyway, then sure, compare the native in-game headphone audio, motherboard DSP, and soundcard, pick what's best for you; if it doesn't make a difference to your fragging or you can't detect any difference to begin with, remember I said it wasn't essential.

If you get a headphone that has lower than 96dB/1mW sensitivity or higher than 250ohm impedance (or much lower than 32ohms) and you want to listen to music, then sure, there's a point to getting an amp along with a DAC-HPamp, whether you hook it up to your mobo (assuming it has a DSP that works on games, and not the bundled Realtek Dolby Headphone like on laptops that only works on movies).




Depends. Does your motherboard have a DSP and SPDIF?

That said, whether it does or not, upgrading to a motherboard with better VRMs and VRM heatsinks can have a bigger effect on your fragging assuming you have good CPU cooling overhead and can get even higher clocks than what you get now, since that increases your framerate. That assumes you're already on a 120hz or higher monitor.




Well if it only has USB then it won't matter if you get a soundcard or if your motherboard has DSP - using USB will bypass the DSP chip rendering it useless and you're stuck with the built-in headphone audio in your games (if they have them, although now that even Total War has it, I'd be surprised if there are still FPS games that don't).




OK...get this.
http://www.wadia.com/en-us/products/di322

Oh wait, over budget. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overbudget.

If you want the absolute best surround experience ditch the headphones and work around having to walk around the rear satellites on these, making sure that they're all positioned equidistant to your head. Still overbudget but hey, it's real surround.
https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Sur...10E5GPBPM8W&psc=1&refRID=9PXA4BBHR10E5GPBPM8W




X2HR. Tried the X2 and it has good enough imaging; judging by what people say about the SHP9500S, imaging size isn't that much of an improvement over Grado Prestige series.




Those can get loud enough without bad distortion that would be noticeable on games.

In terms of maxing out power ceiling and damping factor by making sure you have a low output impedance amp for music, well, those amps can help. Just that there's a chance you might not be able to hear much of a difference unless (or even if) you crank it up.

Honestly if you're willing to get a lot of equipment then just save up for a better DAC-HPamp for music and either get an Audio Technica ATH-AD900X for now, and if you don't like it get something else for music along with the DAC-HPamp later; or get an HD800S later and use it for both gaming and music (but maybe use a tube amplifier for it).

Holly, Thanks a lot for the Info bomb really really appreciate it, Slept for 3 hours only last night reading and running around as I am building a new PC the motherboard that I will pick has ESS ES9023P which seems to be decent for gaming and a lot of people say its more than enough in that regard (Even not bad for music) and pairing that with an AD700x + Modmic 5 (Already own the modmic).

At last that part is done (Although people are still saying the X2hr is a very good option for gaming but 90% of the material I read agreed the ad700x has a better sound stage)

Finally I am looking for the last setup that is the Music setup and the only part I have decided on is the JDS atom as an AMP still trying to find the chosen DAC (Please be patient I know I am stubborn) that will pair with a good pair that is suited for EDM.

Topping DX3 Pro or Xduoo XD-05 DAC/amp.
Read that the V2 of the DX3 has some problem running low ohms cans and is the XD really better than something like D10+JDS atom? (Sound quality wise only as I understand the XD has a more features+ portability)
If your big on playing FPS gaming, then just get an external sound card.
Creative Labs Sound BlasterX G5 or G6.
That will be handled by the ESS ES9023P that is on the motherboard I am getting (x570 Impact)
 
Dec 11, 2019 at 10:38 AM Post #8 of 16
Read that the V2 of the DX3 has some problem running low ohms cans and is the XD really better than something like D10+JDS atom? (Sound quality wise only as I understand the XD has a more features+ portability)
That will be handled by the ESS ES9023P that is on the motherboard I am getting (x570 Impact)
The Xduoo XD-05 sounds nice (I've used one) and everything is in one small unit and is cheaper then D10+JDS Atom combo.
But i'm not against you going for the D10/Atom.

Going with the Creative G5 or G6, the G5/G6 DAC function is used, not the motherboard's.
 
Dec 11, 2019 at 11:24 PM Post #9 of 16
Holly, Thanks a lot for the Info bomb really really appreciate it, Slept for 3 hours only last night reading and running around as I am building a new PC the motherboard that I will pick has ESS ES9023P which seems to be decent for gaming and a lot of people say its more than enough in that regard (Even not bad for music) and pairing that with an AD700x + Modmic 5 (Already own the modmic).

Well it's still more up to what headphone you use and how much power it needs vs what the circuit can deliver.

As a DAC, it's great. As an integrated DAC, it's fantastic considering it can deliver 2V...assuming the particular application wouldn't neuter its performance. That's more of a thing on smartphones since they need to sell out to non-audiophile reviewers who will only report on battery life with media playback and not so much on "wow I can drive this IEM and the sound is sooooooooooooooooooooo clean I can't tell the difference compared to this amp."


At last that part is done (Although people are still saying the X2hr is a very good option for gaming but 90% of the material I read agreed the ad700x has a better sound stage)

Absolute size, yes.

Tonally, the X2HR has low end for music and movies. You can still utilize that for games but again it's just more of immersion, ie, just more low end rumble when something blows up.


Finally I am looking for the last setup that is the Music setup and the only part I have decided on is the JDS atom as an AMP still trying to find the chosen DAC (Please be patient I know I am stubborn) that will pair with a good pair that is suited for EDM.

I'd just hook up the Atom to the line output on the motherboard and run the DSP that comes with the board.


Read that the V2 of the DX3 has some problem running low ohms cans and is the XD really better than something like D10+JDS atom? (Sound quality wise only as I understand the XD has a more features+ portability)

Well if you're getting a separate headphone amp then get the D10 since it's just a DAC.


Read that the V2 of the DX3 has some problem running low ohms cans and is the XD really better than something like D10+JDS atom? (Sound quality wise only as I understand the XD has a more features+ portability)
That will be handled by the ESS ES9023P that is on the motherboard I am getting (x570 Impact)

Uh...what?

If you use an external DAC the DAC chip on the motherboard ie the ES9023P gets bypassed.

A Digital to Analogue Converter takes a digital signal and converts it to analogue. So if the signal goes into the ES9023P, it comes in digital, then comes out analogue on the 5.1/stereo analogue output. If you want to use an external DAC, then you need to run a digital signal from the computer into the DAC, so that external DAC can convert that digital signal to analogue, which means you can't run a digital signal through the ES9023P DAC since it will do its job of converting that digital signal to analogue and hence can not go into the DAC outside the computer.
 
Dec 12, 2019 at 4:32 AM Post #10 of 16
Well it's still more up to what headphone you use and how much power it needs vs what the circuit can deliver.

As a DAC, it's great. As an integrated DAC, it's fantastic considering it can deliver 2V...assuming the particular application wouldn't neuter its performance. That's more of a thing on smartphones since they need to sell out to non-audiophile reviewers who will only report on battery life with media playback and not so much on "wow I can drive this IEM and the sound is sooooooooooooooooooooo clean I can't tell the difference compared to this amp."




Absolute size, yes.

Tonally, the X2HR has low end for music and movies. You can still utilize that for games but again it's just more of immersion, ie, just more low end rumble when something blows up.




I'd just hook up the Atom to the line output on the motherboard and run the DSP that comes with the board.




Well if you're getting a separate headphone amp then get the D10 since it's just a DAC.




Uh...what?

If you use an external DAC the DAC chip on the motherboard ie the ES9023P gets bypassed.

A Digital to Analogue Converter takes a digital signal and converts it to analogue. So if the signal goes into the ES9023P, it comes in digital, then comes out analogue on the 5.1/stereo analogue output. If you want to use an external DAC, then you need to run a digital signal from the computer into the DAC, so that external DAC can convert that digital signal to analogue, which means you can't run a digital signal through the ES9023P DAC since it will do its job of converting that digital signal to analogue and hence can not go into the DAC outside the computer.

Oh I am sorry If I wasn't clear about what I meant, I am planning to go with two set-ups One that is dedicated for gaming and One that is dedicated to music, The first will be Onboard audio with AD700x and modmic (gaming) and one that is D10,ATOM,"Still not final on headphones"(For music) so the D10,ATOM will be separated from the onboard by using USB to drive the D10.

Thanks
 
Dec 12, 2019 at 12:30 PM Post #11 of 16
Oh I am sorry If I wasn't clear about what I meant, I am planning to go with two set-ups One that is dedicated for gaming and One that is dedicated to music, The first will be Onboard audio with AD700x and modmic (gaming) and one that is D10,ATOM,"Still not final on headphones"(For music) so the D10,ATOM will be separated from the onboard by using USB to drive the D10. Thanks
Get a DAC with an optical input.
Connect the motherboard's optical output jack, to the optical input on the DAC.
The on-board audio (motherboard's built in sound card) can send processed headphone surround sound (Sonic Radar) thru optical.

Another thought is to skip the external DAC/amp and plug the headphones directly into the motherboard.
Use the ATH-AD700X for FPS gaming.
Maybe get the Soundmagic HP200 headphones for all other audio (music, movies, etc).
 
Dec 12, 2019 at 1:08 PM Post #12 of 16
Get a DAC with an optical input.
Connect the motherboard's optical output jack, to the optical input on the DAC.
The on-board audio (motherboard's built in sound card) can send processed headphone surround sound (Sonic Radar) thru optical.

Another thought is to skip the external DAC/amp and plug the headphones directly into the motherboard.
Use the ATH-AD700X for FPS gaming.
Maybe get the Soundmagic HP200 headphones for all other audio (music, movies, etc).

Aha so DSP to DAC for gaming and turn off any processing for other stuff and keep one interface for everything.

Thanks a lot for your help through out the thread
 
Dec 12, 2019 at 1:55 PM Post #13 of 16
Aha so DSP to DAC for gaming and turn off any processing for other stuff and keep one interface for everything.
Thanks a lot for your help through out the thread

In Control Panel > Sound > Playback tab, there should be a setting for S/PDIF "pass thru" (might be called Realtek Pass-Thru).
Using Pass-thru bypasses the sound card functions, but audio will still go thru the optical connection.
 
Dec 12, 2019 at 4:28 PM Post #14 of 16
Was looking around and looks like [Modi 3(Read its a better option than the SMSL m100), JDS ATOM, AD700x, ""HP200""??] gonna connect the modi with SPDIF Enable realtek pass thru (Audio stuff) for gaming and disable for everything else.
 
Dec 12, 2019 at 5:51 PM Post #15 of 16
Oh I am sorry If I wasn't clear about what I meant, I am planning to go with two set-ups One that is dedicated for gaming and One that is dedicated to music, The first will be Onboard audio with AD700x and modmic (gaming) and one that is D10,ATOM,"Still not final on headphones"(For music) so the D10,ATOM will be separated from the onboard by using USB to drive the D10.

That's doable but personally it's easier if you use SPDIF from the motherboard or soundcard utilizing its DSP into the teh DAC-HPamp and then jut wire the mod mic into the mobo's or soundcard's mic input. If you do it this way then all you have to do is open Creative's suite and disable SBX Pro Studio, or revert a Xonar software suite to the Hi-Fi default, which automatically shuts off all processing.

Having the music 2ch path on USB requires going through Control Panel to select the output device. Not that much longer to do but while rare it's not impossible for those two audio output devices to have some kind of error or conflict, more so if the USB DAC uses anything other than the generic drivers. It's not that common but combined with how much faster you can switch this is an easier way to do it.
 

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