[kmcdonou]

I'm just wondering the combinations everyone is using for 12sn7 tubes. I know they are supposed to sound appoximately the same as 6sn7 tubes, but I want to know the tube combinations everyone is useing in their Singlepower amps, or any other amp that uses 12sn7 tubes.

I have a Singlepower MPX3 with a Solen III power capacitor, but with Russian silver bypass capacitos along with Jupiter beeswax capacitors to enhance the midrange. This combination provides a good bass extension, but with a sound that is close to neutral (not too muhc bass, not too much treble), especially when when used with my Chimera Labs Advantage Series interconnects.

I like a sound that is pretty detailed, but with enough warmth to fill-out the sound. That is, I like music that has good bass, sufficient treble extension, clear midrange, and enough warmth to ensure the sound is not too lean. I especially do not like bass that extends too much into the midrange. This makes the sound too warm for my tastes, reducing the detail that is important to me when listening to vocals or guitar solos.

I found the best trio is using a Tung Sol, round plate, black glass gain tube with two 12sx7 RCA output tubes. I find this combination (along with my amp's capacitors) gets a good balance of bass and treble extension, along with a very clear midrange. The 12sx tubes do not seem to have as much treble extension as the Sylvania tubes, but also do not have the midrange warmth of these tubes either. I do like the full treble extension of the Sylvanias, but not their warmth in the midrange (at least in the current configuration of my amp).

I originally liked the Tung Sol with CBS Hytrons (tall bottle), but I have found the Hytrons (at least the tall bottles that I am using) do not have the treble extension of the 12sx7s, and not even close to the Sylvanias. As a result, the sound tends to be very detailed, but somewhat dark.

The other combination that sounds pretty good tonally, but not as detailed as the Tung Sol/RCA 12sx7 trio, is a Sylvania JAN CHS 12sn7 gain tube with two Sylvania 12sn7 output tubes. This seems to have a real good tonal balance, but without the detail that the Tung Sol/12sx7 tubes provide.

I am curious what 12sn7 trios work with your amps. Tell me what sound you are looking to achieve and what the tubes you've tried achieve.

I plan to try a Tung Sol, clear glass, medium bottle 12sn7 tube as an outputs to compare with the RCA 12sx7 tubes, but I suspect the affect will be too much much treble extension for me. This might seem ironic, considering I like the Sylvania 12sn7 have the ideal treble extension, but are problematic with their midrange warmth.

The Tung Sol clear glass, medium bottle may have the same treble extension as the Sylvanias, but when I tried it earlier it seemed to make the overall sound brighter than the 12sx7 output tubes (using the Tung Sol, round plate as a gain tube). By brighter, I mean in a leaner way. It does not seem as balanced as the Tung Sol RP/RCA 12sx7 trio. Yet, to be honest, I did not give it enough time.

Any way, let me know what you are using, your amp configuration, and why you like it. In particular, I want you to describe the characteristics of the tubes you've tried and you like. Make sure you describe the base sound of your amp and the sound you desire, so I can understand why you like the tubes you do. I understand it is hard to describe the base sound of your amp, as power cords, ics, and tubes affect the overall sound. I guess I am looking for the tube affects you've experienced with a power cord/interconnect/amp capacitor trio that you are comfortable with.

 

[elmoe]

I use 3 sylvania 12sn7 tubes with mine, see my profile for the MPX3 info.

Two tall clear top sylvanias for each channel and a small sylvania to drive them.

 

[ServinginEcuador]

Even though I own about twelve TS RP tubes, I still prefer the Ken-Rad and Sylvania bad-boy tube combo over everything else. It seems to have it all, with nothing over/underdone. I haven't given up on the other tubes just yet, I just haven't found the right combo using them to make it "click" for my ears.

 

[tom hankins]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ServinginEcuador Even though I own about twelve TS RP tubes, I still prefer the Ken-Rad and Sylvania bad-boy tube combo over everything else. It seems to have it all, with nothing over/underdone. I haven't given up on the other tubes just yet, I just haven't found the right combo using them to make it "click" for my ears.

I have only used the 6sn7 tubes but agree that after using almost every combo of top 6sn7s out there I always seem to come back to the KenRad black glass VT-231 in front of either the sylvania bad boys, sylvania VT-231, or Sylvania 6sn7w short bottle. A pr. of any of these three sylvanias with the KenRad does everything right.

 

[markmaxx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmcdonou I'm just wondering the combinations everyone is using for 12sn7 tubes. I know they are supposed to sound appoximately the same as 12sn7 tubes, but I want to know the tube combinations everyone is useing in their Singlepower amps, or any other amp that uses 12sn7 tubes.

Do you want too say that again?

If Mikhail ever sends my amp back

I love reading the tube talks here on Head-Fi.

I am looking forward to the 6SN7 V. 6CG7 tube combo with the 5687 outputs and the RS-1s in my reworked amp. I would think you would like the 6CG7 tubes as there is a bit more detail to my ears. Can you use 6v. tubes? Mikhail is making adapters for the 6CG7/6SN7 gain tubes.

Happy holidays! Do you have much snow up their? in the UP.

 

[kmcdonou]

Quote:

Do you want too say that again?

Ooops. You got me there. Correction made.

Quote:

I am looking forward to the 6SN7 V. 6CG7 tube combo with the 5687 outputs and the RS-1s in my reworked amp. I would think you would like the 6CG7 tubes as there is a bit more detail to my ears. Can you use 6v. tubes? Mikhail is making adapters for the 6CG7/6SN7 gain tubes.

Unfortunately, my last upgrade I had Mikhail remove my 6v option. I never thought I'd use it. That said, my current configuration is so good I don't feel the need to improve upon it. I know that is somewhat absurd here on Headfi, but I am glad I got to that point.

Quote:

Happy holidays! Do you have much snow up their? in the UP.

Just got another foot while I've been downstate visiting the inlaws for Thanksgiving. We got a 8-10" the week before, but over half of it melted before this last storm. Nothing like coming back from the holiday and having to snowplow my driveway so I can get in the garage.

Quote:

I love reading the tube talks here on Head-Fi.

Yeah, that is why I started this thread. However, I am not getting the answers I am looking for. I would like to hear everyone's impressions on the subtleties between tubes.

Does everyone else feel the Sylvanias have a warmth to them? Do those of you who like these as output or gain tubes prefer the tonality over the loss of detail that I feel the warmth contributes to? I think the 12sx7 tubes or Hytrons have excellent detail without the warmth. Also, is anyone able to distinguish the difference between the Sylvania JAN CHS and the standard Sylvania chrome tops? I know Mikhail likes a JAN CHS driving two chrome tops. I can't tell the difference between the JAN CHS and a chrome top. What are the subtle differences between them.

I know a few people who do not like 12sx7 tubes, but I wonder why? They seem clean and detailed with good treble extension. The Hytrons, in contrast, although equally detailed are not as extended.

For those who like the Ken Rad, what sonic characteristics do you feel they have over the Tung Sol round plate? I haven't spent much time comparing both of them, but they seemed similar at first glance.

Finally, what value do RCA or GE tubes have, including the RCA gray glass? It seems to me the only tubes worth collecting are the Sylvanias, Tung Sol round plate (and likely clear bottle, medium glass), Ken Rad, and CBS Hytrons. I mean, what else would you need to accommodate a variety of sonic characteristics?

Just curious to people's more detailed opinions on 12sn7/12sx7 tubes.

 

[Glod]

You´ll get some inputs from me too one of these days. I am just a bit bussy at moment. I will talk a lot about 12V specific XXSN7GT tubes, like the JAN-CRC-12SX7GT and the B 36.

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmcdonou Ooops. You got me there. Correction made. Unfortunately, my last upgrade I had Mikhail remove my 6v option. I never thought I'd use it. That said, my current configuration is so good I don't feel the need to improve upon it. I know that is somewhat absurd here on Headfi, but I am glad I got to that point. Just got another foot while I've been downstate visiting the inlaws for Thanksgiving. We got a 8-10" the week before, but over half of it melted before this last storm. Nothing like coming back from the holiday and having to snowplow my driveway so I can get in the garage. Yeah, that is why I started this thread. However, I am not getting the answers I am looking for. I would like to hear everyone's impressions on the subtleties between tubes. Does everyone else feel the Sylvanias have a warmth to them? Do those of you who like these as output or gain tubes prefer the tonality over the loss of detail that I feel the warmth contributes to? I think the 12sx7 tubes or Hytrons have excellent detail without the warmth. Also, is anyone able to distinguish the difference between the Sylvania JAN CHS and the standard Sylvania chrome tops? I know Mikhail likes a JAN CHS driving two chrome tops. I can't tell the difference between the JAN CHS and a chrome top. What are the subtle differences between them. I know a few people who do not like 12sx7 tubes, but I wonder why? They seem clean and detailed with good treble extension. The Hytrons, in contrast, although equally detailed are not as extended. For those who like the Ken Rad, what sonic characteristics do you feel they have over the Tung Sol round plate? I haven't spent much time comparing both of them, but they seemed similar at first glance. Finally, what value do RCA or GE tubes have, including the RCA gray glass? It seems to me the only tubes worth collecting are the Sylvanias, Tung Sol round plate (and likely clear bottle, medium glass), Ken Rad, and CBS Hytrons. I mean, what else would you need to accommodate a variety of sonic characteristics? Just curious to people's more detailed opinions on 12sn7/12sx7 tubes.

1) Even though you dont have the 6 volt option the 5687 tubes can be run at 12 volts. The 5687 can be run at 6 or 12 volts by wiring the heaters pins 4/5 in parallel or series. The adapter just needs to be wired for 12 volt operation.

2) I dont feel the sylvania tubes necessarily always have warmth. I find the sylvania tubes basically neutral and slightly lacking bass. The hytron is also neutral but has a little cooler or leaner sound with slightly better bass vs the sylvania ..... sometimes. But in other applications particularly when comparing a Singlepower amp equipped with orange drop vs paper-in-oil (PIO) coupling caps the results can be different. The fact your amp is yet again so different than most Singlepowers ...... that is going to make it heard to relate your impressions to others IMO.

I have the PIO cap/ stepped attenuator/ solen1 mpx3 #1 ..... and another PIO caps/ solen1 mpx3 #2. Right now I am using three sylvania 14n7's in the mpx3 #1 as I find the PIO amps have a darker, bassier sound. The sylvania 14n7= tall bottle JAN CHS/ VT-231 6/12sn7; in case your wondered. In amp #2 I have a tung sol black glass driving two sylvania JAN CHS 12sn7's basically because I am short on adapters and cant use 14n7's. Again, I find the PIO amps seem to be richer sounding in general and I find the sylvania tubes balance the sound to near perfection. The TS black glass is also excellent with two sylvnia 14n7's; tall or short bottle 14n7.

I am a big fan of the ken rad / sylvania x2 combo as well. The sylvania tubes can be a little bass shy and the ken rads big bass balances the sound and still gives a very powerful bass register. When I want more bass I put in the KR.

3) It is hard to distinguish between the sylvania tubes because they made so many types and often made subtle changes between them over the years. The most basic difference I hear is between the tall vs short bottle sylvania tubes. The tall bottles all seem airier and more open while slightly lacking bass. The short bottles have good bass but not the openess of the tall bottles. I like the sylvanis tubes for both the gain an output positions. But for gain the amp needs to have enough bass to support the slightly lacking bass of the VT-231/ 6sn7 types. The short bottle sylvania tubes with more bass make nice gain tubes. I like the tall bottle tubes mainly for output tubes. I like to use a short 14n7/ tall 14n7 x2 combo .... and this works well for me.

4) I dont think people dislike the 12sx7 tubes. Myself, I just dont find them to be that much different from the like 12sn7 to pay the premium price. The 12sx7's are mostly, if not all from RCA and GE. I like several 12sn7's better than these 12sx7 brands .... like the TS black glass, National Union black glass, Ken rad clear or black glass, TS clear glass, gray box plate, Sylvania JAN CHS tall bottle and the Sylvania green label short bottle GT types. The 12sx7 evolved over the years like the 6sn7 too. Later 12sx7's did not have the superior construction and matching of the earliest production 12sx7 tubes.

5) The most obvious difference between the TS black glass and the KR is the bass. The KR has more mid bass power and weight. To a lesser degree I think the KR's treble is just a tad more refined. As I said above .... the KR / Sylvania combo is very synergistic.

6) I dont know what value the GE tubes have as I dont think the GE 6 or 12sn7 is particularly good sounding. I have one GE clear glass 12sx7 and its not much different than the JAN GE tall bottle 12sn7 to me. The RCA gray glass (or early smoked glass) has value if you have to much brightness. This is the only 6/12sn7 I have found thats an intrinsically warm rich souding tube .... and that warmth is consistent with many RCA tubes and their "house sound'. The RCA clear glass is still warmish but much closer to neutral. I like RCA tubes with acoustic music when I want warm string tone. I use them as the output tubes. I actually think the clear glass RCA is the most versatile of the RCA tubes.

7) Your list of tubes worth collecting hits almost all the brands.

The only ones left are Raytheon .... which has a double support rod version 6/12sn7 that is another very good tube .... if you can find a 12 volt version. Then National Union ..... with the National Union black glass being a favorite of mine. The NU has a liquidity in the mids I especially like. The NU can sound darkish at first but you soon discover that the tubes liquidity is different than warmth. This tube is an easier going tube dynamics wise ..... but still has good treble and openess .... just not to the degree of the sylvania tubes. Dumont Labs = Sylvania.

8) The minute you change something even in the same amp ..... in this case the Singlepower mpx3. Then fortunately / unfortunately .... you can expect the tubes to react slightly differently. I dont know if my input helps or not!

But hopefully you can find something of value in this post.

9) Did you ever try that power cord I suggested?

 

[Voltron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover 9) Did you ever try that power cord I suggested?

I would love to hear your suggestion for a good power cord to go with an MPX3 6V/12V that has just about every option Mikhail could think of (according to Sleestack who grudgingly sold it to me after receiving his SDS-XLR). I'll have to ask Mikhail what all went in there. I have tried stock cords and a Crystal Cable Reference cord but I actually think that the Crystal was not a great fit with the amp. Haven't given it enough time, but I am using it for another component anyway. I would really appreciate anyone posting thoughts on cords or sending me a PM so as not to hijack this tube thread.

I have yet to try the 12V option on my MPX3 and I am itching to do so. I have three Hytron JAN CHY 12SN7GT tubes, one pair of which seems to be the matched set for output. Anyway, can someone please post the steps for using the 12V adapter? I know it is in here somewhere, but it would be nice not to dig for it. Thanks.

 

[Rob N]

Was there ever a 12v Sylvania 'bad boy'?

 

[ServinginEcuador]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob N Was there ever a 12v Sylvania 'bad boy'?

Yep, I've got a few of them I got in a huge batch off of eBay.

 

[adhoc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob N Was there ever a 12v Sylvania 'bad boy'?

you might want to pm glod, i believe he has some.

anyway, afaik - as long as it has 3 crimp holes per plate, bottom getter, black 'T'-plates, rectangular top and bottom micas, center slit on top mica and copper rods, it should be a badboy. green print if still visible. other syl gts had either 2 crimp holes, staggered flat plates or round micas. i know that there are jan and non-jan versions out there.

 

[Rob N]

Quote:

Originally Posted by adhoc you might want to pm glod, i believe he has some. anyway, afaik - as long as it has 3 crimp holes per plate, bottom getter, black 'T'-plates, rectangular top and bottom micas, center slit on top mica and copper rods, it should be a badboy. green print if still visible. other syl gts had either 2 crimp holes, staggered flat plates or round micas. i know that there are jan and non-jan versions out there.

I have a pair which conform to the above but the micas are not as shiny as other bad boys,the wiring is different and it glows more like the older 1940's version, so it's a bit of a hybrid.It is dated 1952

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob N I have a pair which conform to the above but the micas are not as shiny as other bad boys,the wiring is different and it glows more like the older 1940's version, so it's a bit of a hybrid.It is dated 1952

Thats the trouble with some of these tubes .... its so hard to identfy them. Of course, Sylvania wasnt thinking about audiophiles someday searching for very specific tubes. Whatever prompted a production change was done without any fanfare or notification ..... to anyone other than the appropriate plant personnel.

I am looking at the 6BL7 and out of 20 tubes I had 6 with no mates. From what I have found so far .... only RCA and GE actually made this tube and there is extensive cross branding. But there are double and triple mica's, different plate structures, extra support rods, different getters, different bases ..... with all these mixed and matched on numerous tubes. Some of the changes show up and then disappear and then return with a later date code

This tube is a tough one.

 

[kmcdonou]

Quote:

9) Did you ever try that power cord I suggested?

I did not need to try the power cord because I wanted to try out the pair of Chimera Labs Advantage Series interconnects that I ordered first. I was using Mikhail's 18 guage silver interconnects and although they made everything smooth and nonfatiguing, they did not lighten my sound. However, once the Chimera Labs ics burned in, everything shifted from a slightly dark sound to more of a neutral one (neutral in that nothing was too bright or too dark).

Now, I can change the tone from slightly dark to bright simply via the tubes I use. That's the point I always wanted my amp to get to.

I appreciated the advice, though. You've been very helpful in answering the tons of questions I've asked over the past year. You've also got me convinced to get 14n7 adapters once someone has time to make them. The fact that Mikhail is making some leaves me with some hope that I can get some within a few months.