[seacard]

If you had to compare a HD650/GS-1 (or K701/GS-1) combo with a Stax SR-404/SRM-313 combo, what would you say are the advantages and disadvantages of each system.

 

[smeggy]

It all depends on what kind of audio presentation you prefer. Despite having a set of 580's I personally don't go much for Senn's any more so it's no real contest for me. I love the sound of the 404/313. I can't ever imagine going back to Senn's after these.

 

[seacard]

I guess the problem is that I don't really know what kind of presentation I like. I haven't found a place in Denver to try out the Stax, so that's why I am asking what I should expect from that combo.

I listen to mainly classical and jazz. I love the HD650s for solo instrumental music, and for vocals. However, I am not entirely satisfied with it for large orchestral works. In fact, I think I liked the HD595 even better for that type of music, which suggests to me that I like a more forward presentation for symphonic music.

I wish I could try out a pair of Stax somewhere, but since that doesn't appear to be an option at this point, I am curious whether the 404/313 combo would be an upgrade over my current HD650/GS-1 setup. (My source is a Musical Fidelity A3.2).

 

[Canman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by seacard I listen to mainly classical and jazz. I love the HD650s for solo instrumental music, and for vocals. However, I am not entirely satisfied with it for large orchestral works. In fact, I think I liked the HD595 even better for that type of music, which suggests to me that I like a more forward presentation for symphonic music.

It could also be the bass bloat the 650 exhibits. Since the 595 is a bit leaner it might be more suitable for the job. I think that the K701 is much better for classical music than the Sennheiser. The Stax should be considered, but not everyone digs the electrostatic sound.

 

[catscratch]

I wouldn't recommend the SRM-313 with the SR-404 unless you have a very warm source or a tube preamp. If you don't have either, get the 4040 system instead with it's 006t amp or the SR-404 alone with the McAlister EA-1 amp, or get a tube preamp (not sure what exactly) to compliment the SRM-313. The 404 likes tubes. Without some warmth somewhere you will have a thin and bright sound. With the right synergy, you will actually match the tonal balance of the HD600, with perhaps less midbass bloat, but you'll also have a lot more resolution all across the spectrum, and a more forward, almost Grado-like presentation (though with less impact). It's really a wonderful sound, but it takes a whole lot of tweaking to get there.

I've never heard the HD650/GS-1 combo so I can't really compare the two.

 

[smeggy]

Speak for yourself, I like the way it sounds, If it was warm and darker and sounded like senn's I really wouldn't like them. I like the lean, fast presentation I get now. Synergy is only synergistic in relation to ones own ears.

 

[Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by smeggy Synergy is only synergistic in relation to ones own ears.

This is true, but people tend to fall near the centre of the bell-curve. No recommendation can be absolute, but one tries to be all things to all people as much as one can.


In any case, I'd go with the Stax personally.

 

[TheSloth]

I can't recommend the STAX lambda derived systems for classical music. They have a very unique sound which is fantastically fast and effortless, however their frequency response has a particularly peaky upper midrange that picks up particular instrument ranges such as flutes which are pushed forward at certain frequencies in an un-natural way. It seems like it was purposely engineered very specifically that way, though I could never work out why.

Before you move away from a system which, by your own admission, you enjoy for most things, you should seriously consider a cable replacement. That should clear up some of the congestion that you find. From a classical music perspective, the 650 is actually very close to neutral. Yes, it's a little dark, but only to a small degree, and to me that's a lesser evil than too bright in this application. Or, consider the K701.

 

[smeggy]

Considering the considerable mid-bass hump and tapering treble of the Senn 650's I'd hardly call their response flat or neutral. I don't know what the 701's would sound like though, might be worth a listen.

 

[TheSloth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by smeggy Considering the considerable mid-bass hump and tapering treble of the Senn 650's I'd hardly call their response flat or neutral. I don't know what the 701's would sound like though, might be worth a listen.

Let's not get into that all over again. Ok, let's. There is a reason why it's shaped like that (headphone flat curve (head-fi doesn't recognise my does not equal symbol) neutral). You don't get companies like HeadRoom declaring that the graphs for the 650's that they obtained are the closest they had yet graphed to headphone neutral without basing it on some serious scientific acoustic principles (well maybe you do but in this case it isn't baseless). Try getting a bass drum (the original kind) to sound like a that same bass drum would if it were being played right in front of you (hopefully in a room large enough to support at least 1 complete 20hz waveform) using a headphone that doesn't have a mid-bass hump. Go on, I dare ya...

And even if you don't accept that, you can't avoid the fact that a 5db hump in the midbass region, when playing classical music (or any music using unamplified acoustic instruments), is not nearly as damaging as a 5db hump at 880hz (what my ears say is the centre of the offending area of the stax lambda series). Almost no tones except for some of the low double bass range, the last octave of the piano and low organ pipes have fundamentals anywhere near the 'hump' in the Senn. frequency response. And then bear in mind that the lower down the instrument's range you go, the more the sound that we perceive comprises harmonics with frequencies above that of the fundamental. So, even if you accent that low fundamental slightly, assuming that the other harmonics are accurately reproduced, our perception of that sound is only very slightly altered - the best example would be the copper wound bass strings on a piano, where most of the sound we actually hear is a vast array of high harmonics from the copper winding, and not for the solid core which resonates at the fundamental frequency. A hump in a range where the fundamental freqency of many of the instruments normally play in the middle of their range is obviously far more detremental to the overall tonal balance.

That being said, the hump might just be 1db too big...

 

[smeggy]

The point is that's one of the reasons I dont like the senn sound. To me it makes it sound thick and podgy. Others relate that to warmth and body... The guy wants to know what differences there are between the two, the differences are largely perceptions and the only way to know is to try them.

BTW, I'm not talking about graphs, I'm talking about how it sounds regarding the hump, it's audible and muddies the presentation for me..

 

[TheSloth]

I was trying to point out the essence of what is necessary to reproduce the music he wants to listen to. We can never account for someone else's personal taste. We can simply account for the facts of the matter. Presentation or no presentation, if he uses the STAX he will experience resonances around 880hz whether he is able to detect that or not, and whether he enjoys that or not. If he uses the Senns, he will experience something that does not exhibit that resonance, however will have a possibly over-emphasised midbass (though I believe it to be very slight, based on my ears and psychoacoustic principles). If one considers those to be the flaws of the two headphones in question, I am trying to point out that one of them is much more detremental (and I also tried to give some scientific and acoustic reasons, because again, no accounting for taste...) to the accurate reproduction of what's on the disk, as experienced at the ear as the other. It's not 'better' or 'worse', it's just how it is.

 

[smeggy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSloth Why do I bother.

Beats me

 

[TheSloth]

Damn, you got in the quote before my edit...

 

[catscratch]

TheSloth - I remember our debate and your experiences with the phones. One thing I do have to mention: I heard what you describe, and it is not nearly as much of an issue with a tube amp like the EA-1 as it is with the SRM-313. I don't rightfully know if this is because the SRM-313 is neutral and the Lambda has an upper midrange peak, or if the SRM-313 has a peak and the Lambda is neutral. In any case, the SR-404/EA-1 combo is much more tonally balanced, to my ears, since the EA-1 is a lot softer in the upper midrange/lower treble and fuller in the midbass. I really wish you could have heard this combo, or one much like it, before you sold off your set. My EA-1 has a problem that has to be resolved first, which with shipping to Canada and back to me will probably take me a good while, but once I'm done, I will be taking this combo to local meets as much as I can.

Anyway, when it comes to the SR-404/SRM-313 combo, I agree with your observations.