[Sarchi]

I posted a skeptical note on my blog about this whole thing (that the entire premise is flawed), and MF posted this comment:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Fremer We’ll see. We’re still at the negotiating stage of this. Since I will be footing the bill, I am insisting it takes place in my listening room. And since I don’t wish to be auditioning A/B/X boxes, which introduced their own impedance issues and switches and wires and connectors, this will have to be a “hard wired” test….Will it happen? Not sure. Do I want it to? Yes. And if I can’t hear a difference? Well we should all question our orthodoxies, and that includes the “amazing” Randi.

 

[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Febs /img/forum/go_quote.gif I haven't ever heard a difference between any two decent quality cables. I have heard differences with very low quality cables, though this is usually either because the cable fails completely or develops shorts that cause noticeable problems. I'm actually looking forward to the Philadelphia area meet tomorrow, as I understand that there will be some aftermarket Sennheiser cables available for me to try with my HD580. Nevertheless, even if I had heard differences, I would still question whether what I heard was caused by the cable or some other factor, like the shortcomings of my own perception or differences in volume. I have personally experienced situations with audio codecs where I thought that I heard differences that, upon blind testing, turned out to be non-existent. I recognize that my own perception is fallible, and so I don't expect the perception of others to be infallible.

That is what I'm talking about.

Enjoy the meet.

 

[Chu]

@vchodea/earwicker

I'd wager 80% of the discussion on this site involves hearsay. As a quick example, I comment in a lot of the 'gaming' headphone threads, and there are people who constantly bring up the pros and cons of the A900/V-6/HD280/RP-21/D1000/Beyers. There are very, very few people who have seriously used all six of those in a gaming environment. I wouldn't hesitate too much to say none.

I've seen the same in a lot of Grado threads. While there are quite a few of us who have heard every Grado model, there are some people which based on their equipment and responses I can guess haven't; yet they can comment on the differences between the RS-2/RS-1/225/HF-1/325i side by side.

A lot of opinions on this site are based on trust, for better or worse. There are plenty of people who have heard the differences between cables, and there are plenty of people who haven't. It should be no surprise that people are picking sides without experience in this matter just like any other.

For the record, I've been able to demo some high end cables and they don't sound different to me. Admittedly not on my own equipment. The only cables I've ever heard differences between are with my Little Dot II++ because for some reason one of my cables picks up radio and the other one doesn't. I hope it still does that at Chiunifi because I'm honestly a little puzzled at why. Both cables are fine on other amps.

 

[ph0rk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif i agree. and that's why i really have no respect for and cannot in any degree take seriously the vast majority of non-cable believer's opinions, as their conclusions are based on graphs, links, and other incomplete science and not actual experience - which in the sum of things is the only thing that matters and is of any value.

That is a logical trap though, as you can always argue that unless they've tried the specific brand cable you have tried with the same cans, amp, etc. It eventually boils down to the actual cable in your possession.

I have tried numerous grades of speaker wire. gauge beats snake oil every time (granted, in the >$100 range, but isn't that where the greatest change would be anyway what with diminishing returns?).

I've also tried interconnects from hosa to overpriced AR/Monster/similar, and other than cable that is inadequately shielded or fails, I detected not much.

I haven't listened to everything, and I haven't DBT'd it, but if you don't hear a difference DBT isn't necessary (as you've already accepted the null).


that said, as Chu points out, this site (and it is not alone) has a high speculation content. However, what would be an acceptable amount, in your mind, of cable exploration before one could take a position in the "as long as they're made well they don't matter" camp?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Fremer And since I don’t wish to be auditioning A/B/X boxes, which introduced their own impedance issues and switches and wires and connectors, this will have to be a “hard wired” test…

If that is the case, I doubt the test will have any merit. If it cannot be done with the proper scientific rigor, there is no point in performing any test at all.

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chu /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'd wager 80% of the discussion on this site involves hearsay.

to be honest, i think it is the exact opposite. or maybe that is just the threads that i browse. it seems to me that in the vast majority of threads that i read, the people have owned or auditioned the equipment being discussed. and if they only heard it at a meet or a friend's, or their views are based on reviews they read, then they usually qualify their opinion as such. so i really have to disagree with this. i personally only comment on gear that i have owned or listened to enough to make some sort of evaluation. any other statements, i always try to qualify.

Quote:

A lot of opinions on this site are based on trust, for better or worse.

100 percent agree. and while i generally read all posts on topics that i am interested in, after a while, you learn to figure out who has an even approach to things. these are generally the more senior members who have personally experienced tons and tons of gear. as mentioned before, those are the only opinions that i value - those based on experience. and the more experience you have, the better your judgment will be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph0rk /img/forum/go_quote.gif That is a logical trap though, as you can always argue that unless they've tried the specific brand cable you have tried with the same cans, amp, etc. It eventually boils down to the actual cable in your possession.

no. that's not reasonable. what i would say is that a person on a respectable setup - and i use this term broadly in the sense of resolving enough - should use a sufficient number of cables of various brands and price points (within reason) before they decide whether cables do or do not sound different and whether some sound better than others. it doesn't have to be my exact setup. that's not reasonable. but they must have some experience with different types of gear before commenting. and that to me is the biggest problem here. people don't. yet they comment anyway as though they do.

 

[Febs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif to be honest, i think it is the exact opposite. or maybe that is just the threads that i browse. it seems to me that in the vast majority of threads that i read, the people have owned or auditioned the equipment being discussed. and if they only heard it at a meet or a friend's, or their views are based on reviews they read, then they usually qualify their opinion as such. so i really have to disagree with this. i personally only comment on gear that i have owned or listened to enough to make some sort of evaluation. any only statements, i always try to qualify.

I disagree. Unfortunately, there can be a high "echo" factor here. I've seen many instances of people commenting on gear based solely on hearsay reports from others.

 

[Sarchi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph0rk /img/forum/go_quote.gif If that is the case, I doubt the test will have any merit. If it cannot be done with the proper scientific rigor, there is no point in performing any test at all.

I disagree. I think if Fremer insists on 'no switchbox', he's only making it harder on himself. It's still DBT, but with a delay between switchovers. That makes it tougher on Fremer's auditory memory.

 

[ph0rk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarchi /img/forum/go_quote.gif I disagree. I think if Fremer insists on 'no switchbox', he's only making it harder on himself. It's still DBT, but with a delay between switchovers. That makes it tougher on Fremer's auditory memory.

Ah, I suppose that would work, though it would require someone present to handle the mucking about, and preferably cables somehow disguised/sheathed with banana clips of some sort (Fremer could pick these, if they bother him).

I won't trust it unless the cables remain in some third party's sight during the entirety of the testing though. Some sort of arbiter is needed.

 

[Sarchi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph0rk /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ah, I suppose that would work, though it would require someone present to handle the mucking about, and preferably cables somehow disguised/sheathed with banana clips of some sort (Fremer could pick these, if they bother him). I won't trust it unless the cables remain in some third party's sight during the entirety of the testing though. Some sort of arbiter is needed.

No doubt there will have to be at least two other people in the room monitoring the proceedings.

 

[Chu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph0rk /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ah, I suppose that would work, though it would require someone present to handle the mucking about, and preferably cables somehow disguised/sheathed with banana clips of some sort (Fremer could pick these, if they bother him). I won't trust it unless the cables remain in some third party's sight during the entirety of the testing though. Some sort of arbiter is needed.

This really isn't that hard. Use a true RNG to choose which cable is up next and have a third party do the switch. Videotape the whole thing so it can be verified post-experiment. Have Fremer and the experiment coordinator leave the room during the switch. Have some sort of obfuscation by the speakers and power amp so you can't visually tell what cable is in use.

 

[ph0rk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chu /img/forum/go_quote.gif This really isn't that hard. Use a true RNG to choose which cable is up next and have a third party do the switch. Videotape the whole thing so it can be verified post-experiment. Have Fremer and the experiment coordinator leave the room during the switch. Have some sort of obfuscation by the speakers and power amp so you can't visually tell what cable is in use.

I had assumed something faster as I envision 100 or 200 trials, which would take far too long with that much time between listenings.

if 200 trials sounds like a lot, it -is- a million dollars, after all.

 

[spraggih]

wow. I have not checked this thread for 24 hours-- back then it was 5 pages long-- now it is 8 pages long.

 

[Riboge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif The context of the sound makes it even more difficult to discern tiny differences. If the music is something you enjoy, you can begin having an emotional reaction to it that colors your perception of the objective sound quality. Our memory is symbolic. We remember concepts much longer than we remember specifics. Humans can remember music for a long period of time. Memory for sound quality is very transitory. See ya Steve

The emotions or sensations evoked is part of what is memorable, and differences in this between hearing the same music played one way versus another is one thing that may indicate a difference in what affects this, e.g., different cable, less jitter, moreso what headphones, etc. People can become disciplined about monitoring their emotional reaction to phenomena and thus use it as an, in fact quite sensitive, instrument of differentiation or diagnosis. It is a cornerstone of the practice of psychotherapy. Don't try to claim you have knowledge about this you in fact don't have, as you just did about memory being symbolic, when there are all kinds of memory, e.g., of pictures, of concepts (which is probably what you meant), of experiences--which is highly related to sensations and emotions to such an extent that some have theorized that emotions are the filing system of experiential memory, etc.

Context and pre-existing mood and emotions can color and distort this of course, but the emotions caused by the listening are closely tied to the perception and perhaps should be considered part of the perception as opposed to a distraction or distortion.

 

[Vul Kuolun]

Does anyone know about the capatiance of the (various) monster-cables?

For what i know, it should be quite possible to generate a treble roll off with a cable with high capatiance and an improperly high output impedance of the amp.

Modern mainstream gear should take care of that, but if Fremer chooses some ailing, exotic tubeamp he may be able to cause an effect (anticipating the monster-cables had an unreasonable high capatiance).

James Randy has to demand that the compared cables should have similar and reasonable R/L/C-values.

Arithmetics, anyone?

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riboge /img/forum/go_quote.gif The emotions or sensations evoked is part of what is memorable, and differences in this between hearing the same music played one way versus another is one thing that may indicate a difference in what affects this

The difference between cables is so subtle (if it exists at all) no amount of familiarity is going to help you remember. You aren't going to memorize whether the sheen on the top of the cymbals has a 1dB boost at 12kHz or not.

Even performance style or balance isn't totally memorable. Remember the Joyce Hatto affair? Well respected reviewers gushed over her performances, only to find out afterwards that they were direct ripoffs of other pianists' recordings- ones that received tepid reviews from the same critics. In rec.arts.music.classical-recordings, people are always putting up mp3s and inviting people to guess the conductor and orchestra. There are a lot of people there who really know their recordings, and even they often aren't able to name them without clues.

I think a little bit of DBT would confirm what I say is true. Perhaps the Randi challenge will convince you.

See ya
Steve