Reviews by techboy | Headphone Reviews and Discussion - Head-Fi.org

Sennheiser's HD 800 - You nailed it Sennheiser!

I'd like to clear a few things before you read the review.

1. Sennheiser India was kind enough to lend me their HD 800 for a home demo, for an undetermined length of time. Knowing fully well that I won't be buying them. As I can't afford them at this point in time. So I'd like to thank you Sennheiser India for this kind gesture.

2. The demo unit is a piece from 2009. One of the first 250 HD 800 headphones that Sennheiser built. So it is the old version. And doesn't need more burn in either.

3. You'll be disappointed to know that most of the review was done with the Sonarworks Headphone Plugin. SW is a VST plugin that corrects the headphone's frequency curve to bring it as close to neutral as possible. I also enabled the Linear Phase option in SW alongside.

4. The reason for doing this was because in its stock form, the HD 800 was way too bright. And coming from the HD 650 I was unable to adjust. Nevertheless, the HD 800's sound fantastic even with SW enabled.

The Test Setup

Headphones - HD 800 (old), HD 650 (2013 - silver), HD 700 - All burned in heavily due to their age.

Amplifier - Project Ember Hybrid Tube Amp by Garage1217.com (with supercharger) -> Sylvania 6SN7WGT

DAC - Asus Essence One Muses Edition

Software - JRiver with Sonarworks for HD 800, HD 650 and HD 700 (HD 800 setting)

Music - Recent Bollywood

Now.

You should get ready to read the review.

REVIEW

Long story short, you'll be delighted to know the HD 800 blows away both the HD 650 and HD 700.

The HD 800 is clearer, cleaner, faster, more detailed, has much less distortion and just better all around.

In comparison, the HD 650 sounds ***led and distorted. It almost seems like a toy compared to the HD 800. Now. You may not like to hear this. But this is indeed the truth.

The only advantage the HD 650 has over the HD 800 is that it is a touch more musical and lusher. But the HD 800 is plain and simple better. And so much better than you'll never touch the HD 650 if you buy the HD 800 once.

After hearing the HD 800 for a few days, I'm finding it really hard to go back to the HD 650.

You name it. Breaking through congested passages. A larger soundstage. Better sound isolation. The HD 800 nails it nearly every time.

Even with SW, the HD 800 is a bit brighter than the HD 650. But no big deal. Without Sonarworks, yes, you'll find it hard to listen to the HD 800 if you're not used to a bright sound.

But that too has perhaps been fixed in the 2013 revision of the HD 800, perhaps.

Anyway, both headphones were used with Sonarworks.

And there isn't much of a contest.

You should take the HD 800 over the HD 650 for anything and everything. For all types of music.

Comfort

HD 700 >= HD 800 >> HD 650

Both the HD 700 and HD 800 are very comfortable. The HD 650 isn't in the same league. Although it is pretty comfortable on its own.

Mids

HD 800 is cleaner and clearer. HD 650 is lusher. But HD 800 is in a different league altogether due to its lower distortion.

Treble

HD 650 has recessed treble.

HD 800 has forward treble.

With Sonarworks, I prefer the HD 650's treble over the HD 800's treble. But only because the HD 800 is still brighter. It is still better in every other way.

Bass

Again, HD 800 has less bass. But better bass. You know that!

Soundstage

The HD 800 feels like it has a 50-100% bigger SS as compared to the HD 650.

Everything else

The HD 800 is clearly a big step up.

To wrap it up

I'd even say if they could take care of the bright treble of the old HD 800, it would be perfect.

The HD 800 deserves to be priced 3-5x the HD 650. IMO. Your mileage may vary.

And the above impression hasn't been formed over 10 minutes. Initially, I was a bit disappointed. But having heard the HD 800 for a while, going back to the 650 was shocking.

There is a big difference!

I recommend the HD 800 wholeheartedly. To everyone.

P.S. HD 700 vs HD 650 review-
http://akshaytalwar.blogspot.in/2016/03/sennheiser-hd-700-sennheisers-queen-in.html

Source:
http://akshaytalwar.blogspot.in/2016/04/sennheisers-hd-800-you-nailed-it.html

Sennheiser was kind enough to lend me their HD 700 for a home demo. And as you know, I already own the HD 650 (silver drivers) to compare them to. And thankfully, Sennheiser has also agreed to lend me their HD 800 in a few days, for a more thorough side by side comparison. But that is best left to another review.

I'm not sure whether these HD 700 headphones have been burned in or not. But. Neither do I care. Because I'm not a big believer in burn in making a radical difference to the sound. At least in the majority of cases. Anyway, just mentioned this to explicitly state that I've no idea.

How much time have I spent with Sennheiser's HD 700 so far?

Not much. Less than 24 hrs in fact. But. I've already listened to a few songs I'm reasonably familiar with.

So. This isn't a review done after extensive testing. But. I've tried to be as accurate as possible.

How much time have I spent with the HD 650 and the rest of my setup?

At least over 2 years or so. Maybe longer. So that shouldn't hinder this review.

The Setup

Headphones: HD 700 (2012), HD 650 (silver drivers)

Headphone Amplifier: Project Ember v1.0 (just tried a single tube, Marconi 6dj8 is what I recall from memory)

DAC: Asus Essence One Muses Edition

Transport: Asus Essence STX SPDIF to the PC

The HD 650 was tested with and without Sonarworks. Sonarworks is a VST plugin that neutralises the tonality of supported headphones. Sonarworks doesn't support the HD 700 yet.

Music

Bollywood (Arijit Singh etc)

Mozart (very little)

I'd like to sum up the basic advantages of each headphone over the other, before I proceed to a more detailed review. So those in a hurry can still quickly get to know the overall gist in brief.

Advantages of the HD 700 over the HD 650

Way more comfortable. In fact, the HD 700 is so comfortable that that alone justifies twice the price over the HD 650 if you consider them equals otherwise.

More or less better all around when it comes to technical prowess.

Clearer, cleaner, more articulate, crisper transients and better speed.

The overall sound is very tight and coherent.

The bass is a lot tighter.

Much better resolution; more detailed.

Reasonably improved soundstage and imaging.

More open and slightly more speaker like.

More detailed and believable vocals.

Basically, the difference in going from a mid range to a high-end can.

Disadvantages of the HD 700 over the HD 650

Additional treble that makes it unnaturally bright (not ear piercing though).

Fatiguing and not as polite for extended listening sessions.

There is something that makes them sound less natural and less musical.

The tonality isn't as neutral; the vocals are a bit upfront as compared to the rest.

Advantages of the HD 650 over the HD 700 (Many of these advantages may be audible only if you have Sonarworks, as that takes the experience to another level.)

More musical, lush, smoother and sweet overall.

The bass isn't as tight but perhaps more natural and with greater punch.

The treble isn't as sharp; it is smoother.

More suitable for extended listening.

It has most of the pros of the HD 700 but not quite to the same level. In terms of technical prowess, it is what it is. An outdated flagship.

Now.

You're probably waiting for a more in-depth comparison between the two. And that is exactly what I'm coming to now.

HD 700 v/s HD 650 (with Sonarworks) - One on one

Sound signature

HD 700

The HD 700 isn't as connect in tonality. But it is a very enjoyable sound signature nevertheless. The bass is super tight. The treble is lively and slightly Brit. The vocals are upfront. The sound is very tight overall. Everything is very tight.

HD 650

More neutral and balanced. Sounds smoother and sweeter, more musical. Nothing stands out even though the vocals are delicious.

Soundstage & Imaging

HD 700 > HD 650

The difference isn't huge. But is still significant. And easily audible. Can be a deal breaker for many once they get used to the HD 700.

I'm not too certain about the imaging. But. I think the HD 700 has an edge there as well.

Vocals

HD 700

More articulate and realistic. They have better resolution and are more detailed. Also more upfront. Crisper.

HD 650

More musical, rounded and smoother. But not quite of the same stature.

Bass

HD 700

A lot tighter. Perhaps artificially tight. Not sure though.

HD 650

Far more hollow and rounded. But a tad more natural. Smoother. And with more punch.

Treble

HD 650 > HD 700

HD 650's treble is just right with Sonarworks. HD 700 is a bit peaky and that takes time to adjust to. Note, the HD 700 isn't very bright. But the 650 is just more natural and balanced.

Transients, speed, articulation

HD 700 > HD 650

Not even a contest. There are really far apart here. The HD 650 is very good in its own right. But not of the same pedigree.

Timbre and tonality

HD 650 is a bit better than the HD 700 here.

Comfort

Don't get me wrong. The HD 650 is pretty comfortable on its own. However, although its sound is suitable for extended listening, it's comfort isn't exemplary. It is just good.

The HD 700 is probably the most comfortable headphone ever. More comfortable than the HD 800 I think. (I have tried the HD 800 twice.)

It is like going from average to superlative in terms of comfort. That alone justifies 2x the price for the HD 700.

Finally. Is the HD 700 a true upgrade to the HD 650?

Technically, yes. Definitely.

However, since the sound signature isn't exactly the same, subjective preferences may differ. Some may take one over the other.

But as far as technical prowess is concerned, the 700 definitely has an edge. And a definite one at that. And combined with the much better comfort, its price is justified. Without doubt.

Yes. I recommend the HD 700 over the HD 650 even at twice the price. But only if you feel the need for something that the HD 650 is unable to deliver. And ideally, you should try to audition before you buy it.

Update to Sennheiser HD 700's review

I have had a chance to listen to the HD 700 with two more setups:

Asus Essence One Muses DAC/Amp

iPad Mini 2 -> FiiO E12

I also compared it to the HD 650 with both setups.

The Fiio E12 setup sounds pretty good. With both cans. But not quite at the level of my previous setup or even the Asus E1 Muses.

I didn't do an AB test or DBT, so I can't be sure. And being an objectivist, I'm not sure why or whether there should be this kind of difference. But for some reason, the Asus setup sounds cleaner, clearer and less muffled.

The FiiO E12 is very good in its own right. And even with low gain I'm at about 12 o clock to get reasonably loud volume with either headphone.

HD 700 vs HD 650

After some more listening, I have come to realise that the HD 700 is a clear and very significant step up. And not only in terms of comfort.

The HD 700 is a lot cleaner, clearer, tighter, more articulate, faster and just gets the vocals a lot more right.

The HD 650 is still better for extended listening as the HD 700 does fatigue you after a while. But I've become used to HD 700's treble in under 72 hrs (and less than 2 hrs of use). It is not really fatiguing. But definitely a bit for extended listening. Unlike the HD 650.

Everything else goes in favour of the HD 700. You can hear a lot more detail. And the transients are a lot crisper as well.

The HD 650 does sound musical and lush. But vocals are relatively frighteningly real with the HD 700.

Honestly, I can't see much reason to choose the HD 650 over the HD 700 except for the smoother treble and better suitability for extended listening.

The HD 700 is difficult to use for over 20-40 minutes tops at a time. Unlike the HD 650. But that could be very personal. I couldn't listen to Soundmagic E80s for over 5 minutes tops. So maybe I'm just used to the less treble energetic HD 650.

Also, do note that most of these comparisons have been done while using the HD 650 with Sonarworks. So the HD 650 was dot neutral. In its stock form it is a bit too laid back for my tastes. And just can't compete with the HD 700.

Stuff like breath and air movements are something that really make the HD 700 shine. The HD 650 is okay here. But not in the same playing field.

The Fiio E12 does a good job with both the HD 700 and HD 650. But. I don't know why. I preferred the Asus Essence One Muses Edition with both the headphones.

Solid State vs Tube

For some reason, I always felt the HD 650 felt dead and cold with the Asus Essence One Muses edition. It felt lifeless. Like something was lacking.

However, the HD 700 also fares really well with this solid state amp. In fact, I preferred it with the Asus over my hybrid tube amp Project Ember, I think. I'm not sure though.

But. With the HD 650 I always chose Project Ember instead.

Now I'm really not sure why this is happening. I may have gone mad and maybe this is all placebo. But these are my findings so far...

P.S. Honestly, after listening to the HD 700 for a while, the HD 650 sounds like a distorted and muffled mess. The difference is at least as big if not bigger than moving from a HD 598 to a HD 650. The jump is probably a lot bigger in fact.

The HD 700 does better most of the stuff the HD 650 does well, and much better at that. But it is definitely a different presentation. And it is best to audition before you buy either!

FYI, the SonarWorks HD800 plugin works wonderfully with the HD700 eliminating the treble issues. If you try it you are in for a real treat and there are is no comparison to the HD650, They are two very different signatures, but the HD650 as fun as it is only scales to mid-fi IMO while the HD700 with the SonarWorks plugin scales to TOTL. This comes for direct AB comparisons with most the TOTL HPs with the HD650 in the mix. The problem with the HD650 SonarWorks plugin is that there is nothing to correct with the HD650 as they got it right out of the box as is. The HD700 on the other hand has a treble veal that is very clear if you use the HD800 plugin and toggle it on and off. Not saying that there is anything wrong with the HD700 as is as it does sound great out of the box, but once you hear it corrected with the SonarWorks plugin, it is hard to go back.

I tried with Sonarworks. With that enabled a lot of HD 700's strengths' take a hit.

It is no more really detailed or as tight.

Sounds better without Sonarworks in this case I think. With the HD 650 it is the opposite.

Garage1217.com Project Ember Hybrid Headphone Amp & Preamp Initial Impressions

Hi guys,

Just received my amp today, the tube is brand new as well. No burning done so far. And used only as a preamp so far, not even tried any headphone

Setup:
Aktimate Micro powered speakers
Swan M50W 2.1ch speakers
Asus Essence STX DAC

Out of the box, default settings with the Siemens 12AU7 tube (same tube that I was using with my Bravo Ocean):
A little warm for my taste but some improvement over the Bravo. Noticeable out of the box. But I didn't spend too much time on this setting.

I changed Output to Low, Input Gain to High, bypassed Input capacitors and then tried again with the same tube:
Again, some more improvement over the previous combination. Not night and day over the previous setting, but again, I didn't spend too much time and it did seem less warm, louder and more to my taste.

Then I tried the Philips USA 6DJ8 tube with the new settings itself:
This was a significant improvement over the previous tube. Much better. Clearer, cleaner. Better pass, better in every way. I didn't listen too long but many would call this a substantial jump considering you don't expect the lyrics to change in the audiophile world

Then I finally settled on the Siemens 6922 with the same new settings:
Again, a noticeable jump in performance over the previous tube. Bass did become less tight and somewhat muddy in comparison to the Philips. However, for non bassy parts, it is cleaner, sharper and clearer. Seems more lively and dynamic as well. I might go back to the Philips later but for now I seem to have settled on the Siemens 6922, at least for the time being.

Changing the tube makes a hell lot of difference. Perhaps somewhat less than with the Bravo Ocean if you really ask me, not quite sure about it.

However, it does make a very significant difference to the extent that you might like an amp with one tube and dislike it with some other tube.

Especially, when you change the family, the difference is even more pronounced. And the tubes I tried from 6DJ8 and 6922 pawned the best tubes of the 12AU7 family

Compared to the Bravo, with the final setting and tube:
Much cleaner, much clearer, better bass response, better treble I think, much more hifi, a huge difference if you pay attention to details and listen for a few hours. Unlikely that you will want to go back after a couple of hours I think. Though, it has barely been 30 minute for me but the clean clear sound has already won me over

Far more dynamic and lively over the Bravo as well.

But of course, to somebody with less finicky ears, the difference might be barely noticeable. But for audiophile ears, the difference is significant, just less than night and day I would say. But then again, to each his own.

You do end up with diminishing returns, so provided you have the dough without being clinched, it should be a decent boost in sound quality.

Mids: Much more articulate. I can clearly make sound lyrics I couldn't before. It is much closer to cinema/hi-fi compared to the Bravo. Again, the difference won't bring you to the moon, but it is rather significant if you pay attention to details and articulation.

Details: A decent jump over the Bravo. Not night and day but perhaps I will know better with time.

Bass: 6DJ8 and 6922 families give much better bass response, at least the tubes I tried, and these families are not compatible with Bravo. Those 12AU7 tubes which have similar bass response lose in other areas, so this is a very clear win for the Ember by a long short.

Treble: Much more realistic and natural compared to the Bravo Ocean. Not a night and day jump, but a huge jump I think. Much cleaner and a bit sharper. Far better at realism. This is without burning in!

Dynamics: A night and day jump. Not even a comparison. Far more lively and realistic out of the Project Ember.

Realism: Project Ember is significantly more hi-fi and cinema like. Far more natural.

Soundstage Width: A decent jump, maybe huge or at least noticeable, not sure about the extent of the difference. But it is better for sure. Wider and more realistic.

Soundstage Depth: A night and day difference. It is far more profound and natural. Deep voices which engage you!

Imaging: Not too much difference, some difference, perhaps a bit noticeable. But not too big a difference out of the box at least. Definitely more balanced without channel imbalance and stuff, a bit more natural, but not as good as what I can get without any preamp in the chain.

Clarity: A huge jump in terms of clearness and cleanness. The PRAT is better as well I think. It is speedier when required but in a natural way. The PRAT isn't night and day difference, but not nil either I think.

Volume: The Bravo Ocean is much louder than the Project Ember with high gain. Night and day louder, the Bravo Ocean is.

Most significant differences over Bravo Ocean:

No channel imbalance like in Bravo Ocean

Much much clearer and cleaner

More dynamic and realistic

A huge difference in articulation and mids

Many more differences, lots more, which really matter, but the above is what will really matter to you out of the box to the most extent.

And the tube/tube family/brand within the same family make a huge difference even with the Bravo Ocean, and also with Project Ember. It is enough for you to like or hate the amp based on the tube used. It is rather significant. Changing the tube is like trying another amp which is similar but different at the same time.

Would I call it a worth it upgrade over the Bravo Ocean for the price difference I paid?

I got my Bravo Ocean new with 1 year warranty shipped to my country including customs etc for less than USD 100.

Project Ember cost me nearly $550

Is the difference worth it?

If you can afford it and have the money to spend this much on a preamp, then yes, it is worth it, provided you have audiophile ears and can appreciate minor nuances and changes.

Is it worth it for every Tom Dick and Harry who finds Bose better than Sony?

NO, the difference isn't as large. But it is huge for most audiophiles, considering people spend 1000s+ on a single equipment, this is definitely worth what I paid, provided money isn't an issue for you

PS: I am not reviewing Bravo Ocean with Project Ember. Just trying to point the differences as these are the only two full sized desktop amps I have owned. They are in different price brackets and of course Project Ember is much better. But how much better? I try to answer that!

Thank You

Aakshey

Source
akshaytalwar.blogspot.in/2013/09/garage1217com-project-ember-initial.html
Read more: http://www.diyah.boards.net/thread/1...#ixzz2f2eF13N3
http://www.head-fi.org/t/681835/gara...al-impressions
http://www.hifivision.com/portable-a...pressions.html
http://www.techenclave.com/community...ssions.152732/
http://www.erodov.com/forums/showthr...161#post887161

Interesting...

Lots of interesting information. Just three questions:
Did you try with headphones as they are both marketed primarily as headphone amps?
Was the lower volume of the Ember ever a problem?
What do you mean by 'pawned'?

thanks for the review!
i have the indeed g3,is it like the bravo?

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techboy

500+ Head-Fier

Sennheiser HD 800 Headphones

techboy

500+ Head-Fier

Sennheiser HD 700 Headphone

techboy

500+ Head-Fier

Garage1217 Project Ember Hybrid Headphone Amplifier & Preamp