Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Jul 20, 2017 at 4:58 PM Post #22,351 of 149,294
Hey all,

Yep, I've toyed with the idea of a high-power OTL headphone amp, but I've never really gotten anywhere with it. We have a TON of headphone amps, and I'm not really convinced we need to add to the line.

But stay tuned...we'll have some more headphone-related products hitting before the end of the year, plus a couple of other surprises. As someone said, we're always developing something.

All the best,
Jason
 
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Jul 20, 2017 at 5:07 PM Post #22,352 of 149,294
Ordered USB 5 Monday, was number 10 in queue. Couldn't ship until Tuesday. Just got confirmation email from Schiit that they received my Gumby. Will update when it ships back.

Am a little miffed that it was announced after the fact that I could just wait a bit and install myself. Not sure how that benefited anybody. Cost me $40 bucks. But I am still excited.

I've got one of those other usb devices refered to. It made very little difference on the Gumby, but was effective on the Bimby. Am looking forward to hearing what USB 5 does to the Gumby...
 
Jul 20, 2017 at 5:17 PM Post #22,354 of 149,294
Both good points.
However, it is much more fun for all of us to be led by Jason's trials and tribulations. And he loves it too. It's like a Schiit Reality Show.
The results are always successful, and by the time the design is released, we already own it emotionally. Have to own it. Addiction, like you said. :)

Joking of course, really appreciative of what Jason, Mike, and the Schiit team have accomplished and continue to explore.
 
Jul 20, 2017 at 5:22 PM Post #22,356 of 149,294
Re OTL, oh, okay. Probably not. I'm personally more interested in how it sounds than what the active devices are. It's one of the reasons I haven't sprung for an Asgard 2. I'm not enthralled with a topology so much as how it sounds. Besides, I didn't want the space-heater that all Class A amps are.

First off, the Asgard 2 sounds great.
I wouldn't classify it as a 'space-heater' given its 30 W max. power consumption rating.
JC
FWIW, although I can't compare with other Schiit head-amps at the moment, this is my opinion too. Don't dismiss nor underestimate too soon the old little Asgard 2. :wink:
 
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Jul 20, 2017 at 5:24 PM Post #22,357 of 149,294
MASantos said:
There are 4 different power supplies in the Vidar as far as I can tell.

2 unregulated supplies (one for each of the output channels of the amplifier), 1 for the input and driver stages of the amplifier and one for the microprocessor that run the whole thing.
So lets break them down but first we must understand how the power amplifier is designed.

Most power amps in the market consist of 3 stages:
-Input stage, responsible for receiving the low level signal from the previous equipment in the chain (most often a preamp) and giving it enough strength to feed the VAS properly.
-VAS (voltage amplification stage) which is responsible for most if not all of the voltage amplification of the power amp and drive the output stage properly.
-Output stage, responsible most of the current output of the amplifier. This is where the big power consumption of the amp normally is located.

-Normally the first 2 stages are more sensible to interferences and noise in the power supply rails because the audio signal is still somewhat small and "fragile". The smaller the audio signal the more prone to noise and interference.
-The objective of a regulated power supply is to smooth and clean the power being feed to the the amp stages. However regulating the output stage is normally not done because it requires more heat sinking area, large transistors and adjoining circuitry and some people report that it slows down the power supply capacity to deliver large amounts of current to the output stage when peak demand occurs ( such as kick drums from a percussion set). Regulating the supplies for the input and VAS channels is easier since the power consumption is usually low and therefore cheaper to implement.
-Running the input and VAS stages from a separated PSU also removes any influence from such demand peaks to the more fragile signals being handled in those stages and allows for higher voltages being used which has its benefits.
-Using separate supplies for each output channel means there is (almost) no influence of one channel on the other. Imagine that if a stereo recording has the drums on one of the channels there will be more demand from that channel because of the high transients from a high hat or kick drum.
-The separate supply for the digital microprocessor also means that any digital noise doesn't intrude in the amplifying stages.

This post turned somewhat more confusing then I hoped but it should help.
AndreYew said:
Here's my attempt at analyzing the photo ...

I'll take a shot at this with zero inside knowledge of Schiit's designs. I've annotated the photo with the letters to indicate what's what.
9975432.jpg


a. 1 center-tapped transformer winding (for the HV regulated supply)
b. 4 transformer windings (for the high current supply)
c. 1 transformer winding (for the housekeeping stuff)
d. 1 bridge for the HV supply
e. 2 discrete-regulated HV supplies
f. 8 capacitors in the HV supplies
g. 4 bridges for the high-current supplies
h. 4 capacitors for the high-current supplies
na 2 power diodes (for housekeeping rectification)
i. housekeeping circuit with separate ground plane (not in Jason's list)
k. 2 capacitors for the housekeeping supplies
m. 3 separate regulated supplies for housekeeping functions

(there are no items marked with j and l)

I couldn't find the 2 power diodes for the housekeeping power supplies. Maybe they're underneath the board in that area.

HV = high voltage. You can see the marking on the PCB next to the header labeled "a" that it's +/- 70 V. The HV power supply is in the center of the board, and it's flanked by the two high current supplies on either side. The input signal traces are probably routed on the bottom side of the board that we can't see to the amp input circuitry which is in the middle of either side edges of the board next to the heatsinks.

The custom transformer has several windings that convert 120VAC into lower AC voltages, and these are delivered to the white jacks labeled a, b, and c. Once there, the voltages are rectified and converted to DC by bridge rectifiers (labeled BR on the board), and then regulated more tightly by voltage regulators (e and m). The high current stuff is not regulated. All the regulators look like linear regulators.

And some other interesting items:
n. Three output transistors per phase or complement (NPN, PNP). Mirrored on the other side of the board for the other channel.
o. Probably the drivers for the output transistors, maybe part of the bias circuitry for the output devices, and some part of the Schiit's proprietary amp topology, but these are transistors (usually marked Q on boards)
p. PEMs, which are basically nuts you press into circuit boards or panels so you can attach screws to them. I think this is an interesting feature here, because it seems the board is held onto the case from below. It might make manufacturing or servicing easier. Usually boards are on standoffs and a screw goes down from the top to sandwich the board between the screw head and the stand off.
q. Output relays and what appears to be an output inductor. There appears to be an input relay near the XLR jack, and all these relays are probably controlled by the housekeeping microcontroller.
r. This may be part of the monitoring circuit that measures current, voltage, and other things to feed back to the housekeeping microcontroller
s. An RJ-11 jack (like old-school wired telephone jacks) which is probably a serial port used to program and debug the microcontroller.
t. The housekeeping microcontroller.

It's also interesting to see that Jason and Mike have pretty different drawing styles for their layouts. Two things stand out:

1. Jason uses 45-degree angles on his lines with sharp corners while Mike likes smoothly curving lines. Modern CAD software do either one.
2. Mike thieves his ground planes (the little black dots that are empty voids in the copper plane, cf. the Gen. 5 USB board), which is usually done to make PCB manufacturing more reliable.

These are just educated guesses so please take them with a grain of salt!

This is outstanding!! :)

Thank you so much guys for taking your time to compose proper answers. It's so nice when more experienced audio gear enthusiasts educate rookies like me. I hope some day I can return the favor on some of these excellent forums.

So, I can assume that Vidar has three stages (input stage, voltage stage and output stage), and either one, or both, of the first two stages are regulated. I'm hoping Jason jumps in to the conversation and can tell with certainty how it is.

Few pages back, I asked Jason a guestion that was not anwered, so in case it was unnouticed, here again: "I would also appreciate if Jason could tell, why they chose to use regulated power supply, instead of more simple unregulated power supply. What was achieved and gained by using more complicated design?"

I guess what I am trying to do here with these questions, is trying to understand what makes Vidar different compared to other power amps out in the market. As far as I have understood, Vidar has regulation on some areas of its circuit board, and there are some "smart abilities" in it that are controlled by microchip.
 
Jul 20, 2017 at 5:27 PM Post #22,358 of 149,294
Both good points.
However, it is much more fun for all of us to be led by Jason's trials and tribulations. And he loves it too. It's like a Schiit Reality Show.
The results are always successful, and by the time the design is released, we already own it emotionally. Have to own it. Addiction, like you said. :)

Joking of course, really appreciative of what Jason, Mike, and the Schiit team have accomplished and continue to explore.

Yes, Jason is a gregarious guy and loves to talk (and write). But you can't help but wonder if some of the same old questions that he has quite firmly answered (power meters, for example) drive him to distraction. At RMAF, when one of the prototype Vidar's overheated and shut down, we talked about wanting something more informative than the power light flashing, and a bunch of us were riffing off each other, suggesting 7 segment displays, multiple LEDs, an alpha display, even Morse Code diagnostics, all while Jason was shaking his head and saying, "No, no."

At some point it has to drive him nuts!
 
Jul 20, 2017 at 5:31 PM Post #22,359 of 149,294
FWIW, although I can't compare with other Schiit head-amps at the moment, this is my opinion too. Don't dismiss nor underestimate too soon the old little Asgard 2. :wink:

I'm all single-ended here, except for the Gumby DAC, and I keep wondering if I'm going to want an Asgard 2 or a Mjolnir 2 as an amp to step up to, or to wait. Knowing that I've made the decision not to go fully balanced on headphone cords.

The default position, waiting, is what I'm doing because of budgetary constraints right now.
 
Jul 20, 2017 at 5:32 PM Post #22,360 of 149,294
Hey all,

Yep, I've toyed with the idea of a high-power OTL headphone amp, but I've never really gotten anywhere with it. We have a TON of headphone amps, and I'm not really convinced we need to add to the line.

But stay tuned...we'll have some more headphone-related products hitting before the end of the year, plus a couple of other surprises. As someone said, we're always developing something.

All the best,
Jason

I can only hope you'll keep on the source/dac/mp track and 2 channel too.
Since I don't use USB (I really don't like it) and already have loads of head amps I can only ask.
The pictures of the concept turntable out there on the web look very promising.
Alas, it's not for me either.
So.. keep the fire under sound improvement, like MP, warm.
 
Jul 20, 2017 at 5:35 PM Post #22,361 of 149,294
Thanks :) I just learned where the rectifiers are :D

If I have understood what I have read, the power supply on Vidar is regulated. That makes Vidars power supply a little bit more complicated than the simplest amps out there. So here comes a question and request, related to regulation. Can some one show me, what are the parts in the picture that make the power supply regulated?

I would also appreciate if Jason could tell, why they chose to use regulated power supply, instead of more simple unregulated power supply. What was achieved and gained by using more complicated design?

I added some part locations to my post,
the high voltage regulation, being discrete, requires quite a lot of parts they will be among the 8 capacitors in the centre.
re: power supplies; the regulated parts are the low voltage low current house-keeping supplies and the high voltage (relatively low current) supply for the output drivers - not too expensive to implement, the actual output power supply (HIGH current) is unregulated, it's a trade-off having regulation where it's more important and avoiding the more costly one where it isn't. (The high voltage is so the output can swing closer to the (unregulated) supply voltage, efficiency for the cost of extra windings)

Edit:
Ooops, seems others have given more details on PCB and PSU while I slept, so this is surplus to requirements :do_not_litter:.
I was just replying to the reply to my reply to a post :thinking:
I don't get alerts half the time (damn new site) and I get out of phase at Z + 10 :flag_au:
 
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Jul 20, 2017 at 5:38 PM Post #22,362 of 149,294
Yes, Jason is a gregarious guy and loves to talk (and write). But you can't help but wonder if some of the same old questions that he has quite firmly answered (power meters, for example) drive him to distraction. At RMAF, when one of the prototype Vidar's overheated and shut down, we talked about wanting something more informative than the power light flashing, and a bunch of us were riffing off each other, suggesting 7 segment displays, multiple LEDs, an alpha display, even Morse Code diagnostics, all while Jason was shaking his head and saying, "No, no."

At some point it has to drive him nuts!

I don't think he gives a Schiit.
He is an entrepreneur and sees the publicity and mystique as one of the good motors of the brand.
And right he is.
We all think he can make a fart sound like a Stradivarius.
 
Jul 20, 2017 at 5:50 PM Post #22,363 of 149,294
This is outstanding!! :)

Thank you so much guys for taking your time to compose proper answers. It's so nice when more experienced audio gear enthusiasts educate rookies like me. I hope some day I can return the favor on some of these excellent forums.

So, I can assume that Vidar has three stages (input stage, voltage stage and output stage), and either one, or both, of the first two stages are regulated. I'm hoping Jason jumps in to the conversation and can tell with certainty how it is.

Few pages back, I asked Jason a guestion that was not anwered, so in case it was unnouticed, here again: "I would also appreciate if Jason could tell, why they chose to use regulated power supply, instead of more simple unregulated power supply. What was achieved and gained by using more complicated design?"

I guess what I am trying to do here with these questions, is trying to understand what makes Vidar different compared to other power amps out in the market. As far as I have understood, Vidar has regulation on some areas of its circuit board, and there are some "smart abilities" in it that are controlled by microchip.
What makes Vidar different is that on a "dollars per watt with comparable performance" basis, it trumps the competition.
 
Jul 20, 2017 at 5:55 PM Post #22,364 of 149,294
I can only hope you'll keep on the source/dac/mp track and 2 channel too.
Since I don't use USB (I really don't like it) and already have loads of head amps I can only ask.
The pictures of the concept turntable out there on the web look very promising.
Alas, it's not for me either.
So.. keep the fire under sound improvement, like MP, warm.


I agree, while improvements can always be made, when it comes to the back end, except for speakers and headphones, I don't believe improvements can be significant with pre and power amps. I hear them as vanishing-ly small for any properly designed units. It seems to me to be more along the lines of very subtle sound signature differences that one likes, or not, and that work well and compliment the associated gear.

I feel getting the source at the start of the chain, be it analogue or digital, to deliver the best possible signal information (given all the variations in recorded quality) into the chain is where, gains might be made at this point.
 
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Jul 20, 2017 at 6:03 PM Post #22,365 of 149,294
I'm all single-ended here, except for the Gumby DAC, and I keep wondering if I'm going to want an Asgard 2 or a Mjolnir 2 as an amp to step up to, or to wait. Knowing that I've made the decision not to go fully balanced on headphone cords.

The default position, waiting, is what I'm doing because of budgetary constraints right now.
Yes, I didn't want to sound harsh. I was just trying to show some love to a sometime neglected but very capable (IMHO) little amp that I also own. Schiit upper amps are arguably better, and I was more than once nearly about to buy a bigger one (I was intrigued by the Mjolnir 2), but then I decided it was time to build a speaker system, and I sat and waited for (Freya and now) Vidar. Sadly I have to delay that for some time now, due to the same reasons as the ones you stated at the end of your post... :slight_smile:
 

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