Question about directionality of sound
Jul 24, 2017 at 4:55 PM Post #76 of 120
I started off by running YPAO and it correctly identified a bump in the upper mids, but it didn't like my subwoofer at all. It tried to dial it all the way off. I used the levels for the mains and rears and some of the basic EQ, but I had to adjust the sub manually. I've finessed it quite a bit since then. Auto EQ is good for a ballpark curve, but I'm picky and want it more refined than that.
 
Jul 24, 2017 at 5:56 PM Post #77 of 120
I started off by running YPAO and it correctly identified a bump in the upper mids, but it didn't like my subwoofer at all. It tried to dial it all the way off. I used the levels for the mains and rears and some of the basic EQ, but I had to adjust the sub manually. I've finessed it quite a bit since then. Auto EQ is good for a ballpark curve, but I'm picky and want it more refined than that.

What you experienced with the sub is common for many Auto EQ systems, Audyssey included. Usually the solution is dialing down the gain on the sub so that it falls into min/max window of the room EQ system.

Unfortunately, YPAO and most of the mainstream room EQ systems don't support curve editing though that's changing. I've long preferred Audyssey Pro added to the native Audyssey versions as it adds the ability to edit the response curve, albeit in a limited manner. The latest release of Audyssey supports curve editing via a smartphone app, so the need for Pro may be diminishing. The "higher end" room EQ systems like Trinnov and Dirac have supported curve editing for a while, but they've only recently been implemented in non boutique gear. Someone mentioned the MiniDSP earlier - it's a nice add on if you want to add some additional curve editing capability.
 
Jul 24, 2017 at 6:07 PM Post #78 of 120
I had already run the room correction stuff built into my Sunfire sub. I don't know why it wasn't in range. That MiniDSP unit sounds good. I could use a more precise parametric equalizer. Five bands is functional, but I could do a lot more with 10.
 
Jul 24, 2017 at 9:31 PM Post #79 of 120
I had already run the room correction stuff built into my Sunfire sub. I don't know why it wasn't in range. That MiniDSP unit sounds good. I could use a more precise parametric equalizer. Five bands is functional, but I could do a lot more with 10.

The Sunfire's room correction addresses the 4 largest errors in FR identified during the sweeps but would be separate from the gain setting. Auto EQ is generally configured with the assumption that once run, adjustments in channel level will be done via the AVR rather than the gain dial on the sub, primarily to allow the channel level to be reset to the original +/- setting as opposed to attempting to manually turn the subs gain dial back to the original position with precision.

End result is that the gain on a sub will usually be set much lower than than most owners anticipate. My JL F113s needed to be at approx 25% gain to get them into range for Audyssey and even at that conservative setting, they are set at -8 and -7db post calibration. Although it seemed odd at first, it leaves more potential increase in gain than I'll ever come close to using.
 
Jul 24, 2017 at 9:49 PM Post #80 of 120
Most of the music I play barely activates the sub. But the thing with a sub, particularly one as powerful as my Sunfire, is that it's capable of rattling the walls if a movie has a particularly big LFE boom or rumble. I've found that the sub almost always sounds great with music, but then I put on a movie (like the end of Cabin In The Woods) and all of a sudden everything in the room is rattling. Even if it's accurate, it isn't desirable. I usually keep the sub level well below that. It may be that I'm in the volume range you're talking about just fudging to accommodate boom boom bass in movies. The gain is way down on the sub... something like 1/3 of the way up. I have to have it low like that because the AVR only has a +/- 10dB adjustment. I can't imagine turning it up higher. I'd trigger the San Andreas Fault!

I'm convinced that the biggest advances in sound quality in recent times have been multichannel audio, DSPs and automated EQ correction. The Yamaha auto EQ was only so-so for me. But it gave me a good jumping off place to fine tune from. I'm not afraid of straying a little from the baseline if it makes things sound better with my particular situation. Machines aren't as good as figuring out the best compromise as I am.
 
Jul 24, 2017 at 9:59 PM Post #81 of 120
I think you would really like the MiniDSP

The range is definitely there for movies. Concert videos also benefit - most of the best MCH content for me in recent years has been on Blu Ray. New Steven Wilson release in a week or so in MCH BR, so looking forward to something recorded and engineered from the ground up for 5.1.
 
Jul 24, 2017 at 11:37 PM Post #82 of 120
I presume you are talking about the rooms response? Speaker impulse response is a different animal, I'd need to study the effects of crossovers (phase) and many other factor to understand "timing" in that context.

Clap your hand in your room. Clap it in the kitchen. In the bathroom. Clap it outside. Clap in an empty church.

This is the impulse. It has a duration, a frequency (or more than one if it it isn't a sine wave clap) The response is your rooms way of reacting to it. How long does what part the sound stay in the room being bounced around? How fast does it decay? What frequencies bounce back from where, how strong are they, do they interfere with other bouncing around waves that are still in the room from the last sound event?
The impulse contains all frequencies. When doing impulse measurements you can derive time and frequency data from a single impulse stimulus. It's much more than just a means to determine reverb time of a space.
All in all, the room responds to input levels, the lower you listen the less the room interferes.
This is not correct. The room always responds the same way regardless of level. Your perception of the response may change with level but what's going in in the room does not.
 
Jul 25, 2017 at 12:17 AM Post #83 of 120
1. I actually did that with the home theater tech when I moved in and there was no furniture in the room yet. There was almost no echo. The pine walls don't seem to reflect sound a lot. The rooms with drywall had a lot more echo. With furniture and a rug on the floor, it's a very good sounding room.

2. My understanding is that bipole speakers are often used in theaters on the sides to fill in non-directional sound to extend the sound field. The point in mentioning bipole speakers as opposed to horn loaded speakers is that directional sound creates a quite different impression on the listener than diffuse sound. It's more than just horn resonances. It's like the difference between a spotlight and diffused lighting. When we turn our head, we can sense the directionality, the same way we see sharp shadows caused by a spotlight. I guess I would describe the difference as "presence".

3. When I read about speakers, it seems the goal is an even dispersed coverage of the soundstage with all the speakers matching. But with a multiple speaker / multiple channel system, every speaker in the system doesn't have to have the same sort of sound dispersion pattern. That's an interesting thing to experiment with. I've tried to create two soundstages on top of each other... one dispersed for even coverage, and one directional to strengthen the stereo separation at the far right and left, and dialogue/vocal channel in the middle.

4. I'm interested to hear if any other systems have interesting theories about contrasting directional and diffuse sound. 5. (Open baffle speakers are definitely interesting to me.)

1. The amount of "echo" (actually reverberation) is not related to the difference in drywall vs wood. Both have roughly the same coefficient of absorption. But drywall walls tend to be very flat, and rooms are often closed boxes and rectangles. Parallel surfaces tend to reflect sound back and forth a lot, and the reverb time in those spaces is longer. Until you add the same carpet and furniture, at which point regardless of wood or drywall you'd end up at the same result if the surfaces are the same. You didn't hear echos because any secondary arrival from a reflection within the first 30ms is integrated by human hearing into the direct sound (Haas or Precedence Effect). But those reflections also mess with the ability of a system to create high quality phantom images.

2. Bipole speakers are not used in commercial theaters. Dipole surround speakers were part of the original Home THX specification, now THX Ultra2 (and now includes Tripoles). The goal was to present a diffuse surround field in a smaller home theater that closely approximates the multiple surround speakers in a commercial cinema, which may us up to 20, but likely at least 10. Multiple speakers in a big space create a diffused surround field that is deliberately not intended to precisely localize. This was a problem in the home because typically there are only two speakers, which are obviously localized. Using a dipole with the null pointed at the LP presents a difficult to localize soundfield in a small space from only two speakers. Additionally the THX spec requires flat off-axis power response of those dipoles. In later developments it was found that the null could be slightly filled in with a third HF driver creating a "tri-pole" configuration which created a somewhat less ambiguous, more easily localized surround speaker. Some tripoles have a switch for dipole/tripole. The bipole is a bit of an anomaly, and was likely created to mimic a dipole without violating patents.

Yes, the presentation from a dipole is very different from all direct radiating speakers, but that is the intention driven by the application.

3. In the ideal configuration the LCR speakers should match in every way, including dispersion. Equally important, the acoustic space around and near to the speakers should also be as identical as possible.

There are two generalized applications of surround sound, film and music. All 5.1 film mixes assume a diffuse multi-speaker surround system, which dipoles mimic in small rooms. Within music there are mixes intended for direct radiating speakers, and mixes intended for diffused field/dipole speakers. Both can work, but the "in the band" perspective works best with direct radiating surround speakers, and they should ideally be identical the the LCRs in that application. But that's a very specific surround mix configuration, the "band on stage" surround perspective mix works just fine with all types of surround speakers, best on dipoles.

4. There have been many speaker designs that were bipolar and dipolar, as will as omnidirectional (or at least toroidal), most had the intention of creating a very large sounding feel by using all surfaces in the room as reflectors. They do sound big! Everything becomes spacious and very ambiguous. But they also are terrible at creating a palpable phantom image. The requirements to do that are directly opposite of those speaker designs. What works for good imaging are direct radiating speakers either designed to control dispersion and keep reflections off walls, ceilings and floors, or less directive speakers (with better sound, most likely) placed in spaces that have had reflections treated.

An interesting thing happens in a treated space. You might expect it to be dry, two-dimensional and a bit flat. The exact opposite occurs, you get a bigger presentation, solid phantom images, and other phantom directional cues like height and depth begin to appear. Current understanding seems to indicate not a completely dry treated room, but one with some reflections, just not a lot of strong early ones.
 
Jul 25, 2017 at 1:30 AM Post #84 of 120
The panelling in my rumpus room is from 1952. Very soft and light weight. Quite different than drywall. That's as far as I read.
 
Jul 25, 2017 at 1:33 AM Post #85 of 120
I think you would really like the MiniDSP

The range is definitely there for movies. Concert videos also benefit - most of the best MCH content for me in recent years has been on Blu Ray. New Steven Wilson release in a week or so in MCH BR, so looking forward to something recorded and engineered from the ground up for 5.1.

I think I'd like the MiniDSP too. I like Steven Wilson's mixes. I have a lot of them. Aside from some of the Jethro Tull stuff, I don't like a lot of the music he chooses to mix though. I wish there was more to multichannel than prog rock. I agree that most of the good multichannel rock mixes are video blu-rays. I don't care much for Kraftwerk, but their new box set is a jaw dropper.
 
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Jul 25, 2017 at 2:28 AM Post #86 of 120
The panelling in my rumpus room is from 1952. Very soft and light weight. Quite different than drywall. That's as far as I read.
If the wall has insulation it may be somewhat absorptive at low frequencies where it acts as a diaphragm but from mid band and up it's pretty much just like drywall, about .05 in most octave bands.
 
Jul 25, 2017 at 3:32 AM Post #87 of 120
The impulse contains all frequencies. When doing impulse measurements you can derive time and frequency data from a single impulse stimulus. It's much more than just a means to determine reverb time of a space.

This is not correct. The room always responds the same way regardless of level. Your perception of the response may change with level but what's going in in the room does not.


Hmmm. Sounds valid. But the effects of the room will be stronger if you turn it up. So listening at lower levels "feels" less stressful? Perception: You are talking about the "loudness curve"?
 
Jul 25, 2017 at 10:25 AM Post #88 of 120
Hmmm. Sounds valid. But the effects of the room will be stronger if you turn it up.
Why? What about the room behaves differently at higher levels? Does the absorption coefficient of materials change? (That would be no.)
So listening at lower levels "feels" less stressful?
Huh? Who said that?
Perception: You are talking about the "loudness curve"?
Partially, but there are other aspects about hearing that change too. At lower levels hearing becomes less sensitive to ambient, surround effects, including room reflections.
 
Jul 25, 2017 at 11:06 AM Post #89 of 120
Why? What about the room behaves differently at higher levels? Does the absorption coefficient of materials change? (That would be no.)
Huh? Who said that?

Partially, but there are other aspects about hearing that change too. At lower levels hearing becomes less sensitive to ambient, surround effects, including room reflections.

1. Louder is louder. I did actually understand your original answer. Your answer to 3 works here. This is what I am trying to say.
2. Me, subjective
3. Thanks! Makes sense.


I always mix things up in definition, sorry.
 
Jul 25, 2017 at 11:32 AM Post #90 of 120
1. Louder is louder. I did actually understand your original answer. Your answer to 3 works here. This is what I am trying to say.
2. Me, subjective
3. Thanks! Makes sense.


I always mix things up in definition, sorry.
1. Nothing about the behavior of the room changes with volume. RT60 works at any level you can make it above ambient noise. My #3 answer doesn't fit as it relates to perception, not the room.
2. It was stated as a question. Sorry I didn't get it.
 

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