[Energy]

Posting this I2S specification for the X-Sabre PRO in case anyone needs.
 

 

[eugenius]

  I think Matrix is just changing focus from budget or "great for the price" stuff to true high-end gear. You can see this from their product timeline over the years:
 
M-Stage (original) and Cube DAC were both low cost, relatively high performing devices for their era. They also had some less well known affordable stuff like the Rip DAC and that tiny USB to SPDIF device that looked like a AA battery.
 
Then they started moving up, with the first Quattro DAC and matching balanced amp which competed in a higher space. The mini-i line got nicer too.
 
Then we got the X-Sabre, which was a really great DAC - rivaling competition in the ~$2k range for nearly half that amount.
 
Now they seem to be looking towards moving even higher, which necessarily costs more. Other DACs aren't standing still either, so it's harder to be a standout. The X-Sabre Pro impressed me quite a bit though, and the X-Server is an easy recommendation once it launches. 
 
Hopefully they also keep some good models in the lineup that have more affordable prices. 

 
If you're going to do true high end, you need to provide a complete hardware and software solution yourself, and have excellent support for both.
 
People who drop the software problem on somebody else aren't true high end, no matter how many expensive parts they stuff into the case.

 

[project86]

If you're going to do true high end, you need to provide a complete hardware and software solution yourself, and have excellent support for both.

People who drop the software problem on somebody else aren't true high end, no matter how many expensive parts they stuff into the case.

It's early and I'm a bit slow. Care to elaborate? Are you talking about Matrix pairing up with Euphony for the OS on their server?

 

[eugenius]

Yes, that's what I'm saying.
 
That's why Apple makes 104% of the total smart phone profits. Because Apple is true high end and the others are really nice mediocrity.

 

[ArthurPower]

A behind-the-scenes introduction to the X-Server:

Euphony OS had been in development before Matrix even thought about designing a music server. When they decided this was something they wanted to do, they contacted the Euphony programmers (who they had already known for years). Everyone then worked together to figure out what would make the ultimate playback system from both ends, hardware and software.

Most manufacturers who build audio hardware are not software programmers. They simply outsource that part of their product or use a generic open source OS. However, the X-Server is a joint venture between two companies. Matrix strong point is designing and building hardware. Euphony's strong point is designing and programming software.

I have known and worked with all of these guys for many years now. In the last year though, I became part of the design team. All of us wanted to build and bring a music server to market. We realized by combining all our ideas, we could create something that would result in a much better product than any one of us could have done alone.

However, things have yet to be finalized. We are currently considering a stand-alone music-server-only model to start with (would not include a DAC). At this point we really need suggestions from potential customers to ensure the end product meets the requirements and desires of all or at least most audiophiles in this market.

Everyone who is part of this project is an audiophile, but we need your help to build a checklist of what YOU—the customer—are looking for in a music server. This will help us expand our team to include potential customers for this product.

Please help us build the ultimate playback system by posting any suggestions or ideas that you have so that we can better refine the finished product to meet and/or exceed everyone's expectations.

Thank you for your help,

Arthur

 

[project86]

  Yes, that's what I'm saying.
 
That's why Apple makes 104% of the total smart phone profits. Because Apple is true high end and the others are really nice mediocrity.

 
 
Still not sure what to make of this statement. I've owned or had long term experience with streaming players/audio servers from B.M.C., Aurender, SOtM, Auralic, Linn, Bryston, McIntosh, NAD, and Pioneer just to name a few. I don't see any correlation to what you've said. In fact some of the best experiences I've had in this space has been when a company knew where to focus their expertise (hardware) and where to rely on the experience of others (software).
 
Aurender and Auralic, for example, have spent rather large amounts of time/effort designing and then further refining their OS and remote apps. True, both have customized versions of Linux underpinning their software, but we could also argue Mac's OS X platform is built around Unix (if we go back far enough). Either way, despite Aurender and Auralic doing an excellent job, I very much prefer the user experience that comes with the Matrix X-Server and Euphony OS. 
 
I would definitely have different recommendations for a device like this, based on the needs of each individual user. Whether or not the hardware manufacturer also created the software.... would not be on my radar at all. 

 

[zerstorer]

An important aspect for the dedicated server is that it needs to have the processing grunt to handle all current and future formats that the matrix sabre pro can handle. This means both 768pcm and 512/1024DSD.

This is also taking into consideration that it can act as a roon server and with roon also capable of upsampling now.

Hence an i7 based unit is essential rather than just an i3.

A smaller device that acts like a roon renderer with a high quality I2S output is also worth consideration judging from the success of the microrendu.

 

[Robert McAdam]

 Because Apple is true high end

Certainly wouldn't put Apple in that category that's going a bit far. In comparison to true high end audio they do not play in this field and never intend to. 

 

[eugenius]

   
 
Still not sure what to make of this statement. I've owned or had long term experience with streaming players/audio servers from B.M.C., Aurender, SOtM, Auralic, Linn, Bryston, McIntosh, NAD, and Pioneer just to name a few. I don't see any correlation to what you've said. In fact some of the best experiences I've had in this space has been when a company knew where to focus their expertise (hardware) and where to rely on the experience of others (software).
 
Aurender and Auralic, for example, have spent rather large amounts of time/effort designing and then further refining their OS and remote apps. True, both have customized versions of Linux underpinning their software, but we could also argue Mac's OS X platform is built around Unix (if we go back far enough). Either way, despite Aurender and Auralic doing an excellent job, I very much prefer the user experience that comes with the Matrix X-Server and Euphony OS. 
 
I would definitely have different recommendations for a device like this, based on the needs of each individual user. Whether or not the hardware manufacturer also created the software.... would not be on my radar at all. 

 
I don't know about Aurender but Auralic are a pretty negative example.They have a fast hardware platform in their streamers and they hardly use it. Do they have online services and working multi-room now? Do they have an Android app? They didn't have those last time I checked.
 
I didn't say it's easy to do software - so I understand why Matrix isn't even trying. That also means they will be tied up to one of these small, ephemeral audio Linux distributions with practically no support and no online services. Not to mention bugs and security holes.
 
Who is the customer going to call when they have a software problem with the Matrix server? Is he going to get (in your words) a true high end experience?

 

[project86]

   
I don't know about Aurender but Auralic are a pretty negative example.They have a fast hardware platform in their streamers and they hardly use it. Do they have online services and working multi-room now? Do they have an Android app? They didn't have those last time I checked.
 
I didn't say it's easy to do software - so I understand why Matrix isn't even trying. That also means they will be tied up to one of these small, ephemeral audio Linux distributions with practically no support and no online services. Not to mention bugs and security holes.
 
Who is the customer going to call when they have a software problem with the Matrix server? Is he going to get (in your words) a true high end experience?

 
I no longer have the Auralic but Aurender is my "daily driver" so it makes for a good comparison. In the few times I've had an issue, they are quick to respond and give suggestions or even remote in to look at my network for troubleshooting. Which is great.... BUT if you have a more significant problem, you get escalated to higher tier support with engineers and it takes some time to sort the whole thing out. Plus no Roon support even though it was initially promised.
 
Despite this, Aurender is one of the better examples. My experience with McIntosh on their early server products was dismal - refer you to a local dealer who is essentially a vinyl enthusiast and has no real understanding of the digital side of things (other than knowing how to sell them). Pretty much the same boat with Esoteric and their new N-05 device. Naim and Linn are hit or miss too - it's fine assuming your issue is basic stuff, but anything beyond simple configuration trouble can get pretty dicey. 
 
Dealing with Matrix, you speak with Arthur (via email or phone) who is a native English speaker (which helps with explaining complex problems/solutions), and very familiar with Euphony and general Linux as well. There's also Roon support as either Endpoint or full Core, which of course brings full Tidal integration. The Euphony team is constantly updating and seem to have squashed the few, very minor bugs that existed in early builds. Plus they are open to suggestions for options if you think of some options you want to see - try that with any of the other companies and see how far you get.
 
Not much more I could possibly want from the transaction, and I'm at a loss to see how anyone might feel otherwise after having firsthand experience with the Matrix. Can you give me an example of a company (besides Apple....) which lives up to your standards as far as music servers?

 

[project86]

An important aspect for the dedicated server is that it needs to have the processing grunt to handle all current and future formats that the matrix sabre pro can handle. This means both 768pcm and 512/1024DSD.

This is also taking into consideration that it can act as a roon server and with roon also capable of upsampling now.

Hence an i7 based unit is essential rather than just an i3.

A smaller device that acts like a roon renderer with a high quality I2S output is also worth consideration judging from the success of the microrendu.

 
I'm not sure Matrix has settled on the final specs for CPU yet. I of course would love to see the beefiest processor possible given the TDP constraints, but let's keep it in perspective. I've got a little silent fanless server using a Skylake i5 6500T - certainly not the most powerful CPU by any means - and it does really well with DSD upsampling to several zones at once. Never had a dropout, and utilization stays pretty reasonably low. Granted I'm mostly doing DSD128 and/or 24/192 PCM upsampling for two or three rooms at a time, so maybe the higher DSD takes drastically more power?
 
I personally don't think those ultra-high DSD upsampling rates add anything worthwhile anyway, but I can certainly see the point of wanting full capabilities of what Roon can offer, just for the sake of saying you can. Honestly though, for single streams (which is what most people will use, most of the time) I think a good i3 could do the job just fine even with mega-upsampling at play. 

 

[ArthurPower]

An important aspect for the dedicated server is that it needs to have the processing grunt to handle all current and future formats that the matrix sabre pro can handle. This means both 768pcm and 512/1024DSD.

This is also taking into consideration that it can act as a roon server and with roon also capable of upsampling now.

Hence an i7 based unit is essential rather than just an i3.

A smaller device that acts like a roon renderer with a high quality I2S output is also worth consideration judging from the success of the microrendu.

A high quality I2S output is an excellent suggestion and I would say a requirement so that it can fully utilize the X-Sabre Pro capabilities or any other DAC on the market.

A processor capable of all the features and sample rates is also essential. We do want to keep this product fanless so heat dissipation is an important concern. However, Euphony is extremely efficient and uses very little CPU processing. Full Roon server functionality along with upsampling definitely requires a lot more CPU utilization. Current generation i3 processors are actually fully capable of handling this since the Linux kernel that is used has been optimized for efficiency to run all these features.

That said we will definitely have to fully test the maximum capabilities to make sure that there's sufficient processing power with overhead. If a Windows operating system was used we would probably require three to four times more processing power. Most people don't realize just how bloated down Windows is.

Also Euphony does not have a desktop GUI, in true server fashion. Everything is controled from a web interface or an app on your mobile device. This in itself frees up a ton of resources.

Thank you for your suggestions.

 

[eugenius]

   
I'm not sure Matrix has settled on the final specs for CPU yet. I of course would love to see the beefiest processor possible given the TDP constraints, but let's keep it in perspective. I've got a little silent fanless server using a Skylake i5 6500T - certainly not the most powerful CPU by any means - and it does really well with DSD upsampling to several zones at once. Never had a dropout, and utilization stays pretty reasonably low. Granted I'm mostly doing DSD128 and/or 24/192 PCM upsampling for two or three rooms at a time, so maybe the higher DSD takes drastically more power?
 
I personally don't think those ultra-high DSD upsampling rates add anything worthwhile anyway, but I can certainly see the point of wanting full capabilities of what Roon can offer, just for the sake of saying you can. Honestly though, for single streams (which is what most people will use, most of the time) I think a good i3 could do the job just fine even with mega-upsampling at play. 

 
I have three fanless systems from Hush, HFX and HDPlex and I'll update the HFX to a Ryzen 1700 pretty soon. But I consider DSD a fool's errand.
 
The NAD-Bluesound ecosystem is the best today in streaming. Plenty of services, good support and they scale from little portable speakers to 4500€ source components like the Nad M12. 
 
And for standalone digital music players, the Sony HAP-Z1ES is good. It's got limited features but what it does, it does well. I wish it they launched an update with more memory, increased maximum number of tracks and quad ssd slots. 

 

[project86]

I agree on NAD/Bluesound being quite good. They've come a long way from their C446 which seemed great for the price at the time, but pretty crude by today's standards. 
 
The Sony Z1ES is not at all my cup of tea though - 1TB internal drive? No Roon or Tidal support? Mediocre control app? The sound is nice but I did not enjoy living with it as my daily driver.

 

[ArthurPower]

Recent updates:

Matrix has decided to go all the way and start with a flagship model! It will be based on the prototype design that everyone loved with a built in DAC.


Some preliminary features...

The built in ESS Sabre ES9038Pro DAC module will use a FPGA to support PCM 768 and DSD 1024 playback.

There will be 2 x user accessable 2.5" storage drive bays for SSD or hard drives (in addition to the board mounted M.2).

The CPU processor hasn't been decided yet. More testing is required.


Please continue to give us some suggestions!

Thank you, Arthur