[mtoc]

A special thread for high-end hp's comparison. Everythin's welcome.

 

[Drumonron]

Sure is quiet in this thread.

 

[Marc Lian]

Well seeing as the Focal cans just came out it should pick up soon. I can't wait to get my mitts on a pair to demo.

 

[beowulf]

I'm curious about this one. Wondering if I should delay my HD800S purchase.
But in a way, there will always be interesting good models coming out... eventually one has to settle.

 

[Tassie Devil]

Ok, here is 2c from someone who owns and enjoys both of these headphones.

My advice to anyone thinking of spending dollars/ euros or whatever on either headphone is to first make sure the input is as good as possible. Otherwise neither of these headphones will be pleasant to listen to as the old Garbage in -> Garbage out rules with a vengeance. And I've experienced that here.

The other day I listened to a recording by Ronald Brougham Of a Beethoven sonata on the main headphone listening station with the Focals. I was so impressed I moved into this office to post about it and continued to listen on the DAC/amp setup here with the Sennies. Ye Gods, I could not believe how bad the sound was comparitively - it really was a chalk and cheese difference and it was NOT the fault of the Sennies. Yes, I'll have to look into improving the DAC/amp setup here in the office.

I know the Sennies were not at faultt because the AQ via them via a new Pioneer XDP-30R is very close to that of the Focals. No, not quite as good but it is close. And I can listen to either headphones on the Pioneer with a balanced connection - I just silver soldered up some black dragon cable for that purpose with the Focals (the 2.5mm plug is a veritable PIA to solder but that is another story).

And another tale about input. Until recently I've had high respect about the AQ from the SONY 100S player. But, listen to classical music on it with the Sennies and compare it to the AQ on the Sennies from the Pioneer XDP-30R (with either balanced or unbalanced connection - I have both), and you have another chalk & cheese situation.

The burning question obviously then is - are the Focal Utopia's worth the extra outlay over the Sennheiser HD800S? The answer to that is one to decide with these factors in mind:
* will the extra outlay for the Focals (and they ARE expensive) cause budgetry problems elsewhere in the household?
* would the extra money be better spent on improving the input?

So, if everything is set up in a row and you can afford them, go for the Focals as yes, they are better. But like so much in audio the move from Sennies to Focals is an exponential cost increase that does not directly correlate with improvement in AQ. Costing 2X or more as much does not mean the AQ is 2X better. Such is life!!

Bottom line, I love the Pioneer/Focal Utopia combination and of course love the Focals in my main system as well as the Sennies with the Pioneer. And a music lover was here yesterday and listened to the Focals on that main system and proclaimed it as the BEST sound he had ever experienced using headphones.


THE MAIN SYSTEM: Roon music server (on this PC) -> Aurtalic -> digital balanced out -> Primare DAC30 -> Headroom Blockhead Balanced amp -> Black Dragon cabling -> Focal Utopia headphones

 

[BunnyNamedCraig]

There is a lot of validity to what you have to say. The HD800s and Utopia are VERY revealing headphones... with that said though I have a fantastic time driving the Utopia out of the Questyle CMA600i (amp/DAC combo) which is closer to $1000 then $2000.... so I really feel if you have quality equipment then you will "get your monies worth" out of the Utopia. BUT if you do scale higher with your gear you will be rewarded for it. The Utopia is very reactive to gear and in the sense, you are able to get more flavors out of it. So that sense it can be very fun!

In regards to the cost of the Utopia versus ones budget.... You're right. Ha. So for everyone's sake, be carefuI! I recommend not demoing them unless you can afford it, OR get ready to eat Ramen for a while

 

[Asteron70]

The two main headphones in my setup are the HD800S and the Utopia. I power both with the Metrum Pavane + V281.
The Utopia beats the HD800S hands down. It is simply a better headphone - better resolution, better/punchier dynamics, more balanced (given MUCH better bass), and also has a very accurate soundstage which is the correct size (not artificially enhanced). I don't know what gear that the posters downplaying the Utopia soundstage are using, but perhaps its the feeder gear problem (not a problem with the capability of the HP).

The HD800S is remarkably good value at its price point, and to me a purer headphone than both the HE1000 and LCD4. The key reasons why I continue to own both are:
1. The HD800S has an immense soundstage. While I know it's less accurate than the Utopia, it's still a fantastic illusion that I like going back to experiencing!
2. The HD800S is very comfortable, and is less dynamic/resolving than the Utopia... which means it's a better headphone to wear for longer periods and also when you happen to be multi tasking. But when I have the time to focus only on the music, I turn to the Utopia.

I think if you can afford something more expensive than the HD800S, the Utopia is a no brainer. But for the price the HD800S is a seriously awesome alternative. It's about 90% as good as the Utopia... and the law of diminishing returns has different value depending on the eye of the beholder.

As an aside, I think it's a bit of a myth that if you buy better feeder gear, the HD800S (or another equivalently priced HP) would become comparable to the Utopia. Within reasonable levels of feeder gear - I think that's wrong. For e.g. my AK320+AMP is about 1/3 the price of the Pavane+V281. My utopia with the AK combo sounds better than the HD800S with the Pavane+V281 combo. Though the soundstage difference is more significant (as the AK320 amp can't drive the same size of soundstage as the v281, and obviously the AK320 has less detail retrieval than the Pavane), it's resolution & balance is just excellent... taking advantage of the fact that the utopia is a more efficient headphone.

 

[Tassie Devil]

Not so sure I agree (detailed why below) about the quoted myth. FWIW (and we all have different brains to interpret what we hear so reactions will differ) here are my updated thoughts on the topic:

In general terms, as an owner of both, I would recommend the Sennheiser is a better fit for most people. Yes, the Focals are slightly better and more revealing BUT this will only be apparent in an optimised system. Here are my reasons –

1. The Focals are NOT twice as good as the price difference might suggest. Yes, they are better but do not agree it is a slam dunk match.

2. The Sennies weigh less and are more comfortable.

3. The Sennies have a 2 year guarantee while the Focals have only one. This is more important than you might first think as I’ve never had to have Sennies repaired but currently have my Focals in for repair at a (most likely high) cost, yet to be determined.

4. The Sennies do have a superior soundstage and are delight to listen to (mostly classical in my case) music.

My advice would be that the extra dollars required for the Focals over the Sennies would yield better results if spent elsewhere, in particular on the DAC.

Getting to where I am now has been a long, long and often wasteful road. I cut my teeth on the first audio delight with headphones listening to AM radio on a constructed crystal set back in the 1950’s. Yes, this audio idiot is pretty old at 82 next month!!! And I’ve trodden the vinyl path with fancy Linn Sondel tables, Koetsu cartridges etc etc and initially hated CDs. And that dislike was well founded as the conversion from digital to analog was pretty bad in those days with jitter fouling up the audio.

But technology has moved on so I sold my vinyl collection, then a few years later sold the CD collection and moved on to the expensive Meridian Sooloos server system. Even that is now abandoned in favour of Roon so the headphone setup now is:

Music files (around 16,000) on a 6TB HDD in this drive, processed by Roon, hardwired by a LAN connection to an Aurilac Aries streaming bridge –> AES balanced digital out via Canare DA206 115 ohm cabling -> Schiit Yggdrasil DAC -> bal;anced analog audio -> Auralic Tausus MkII amp -> balanced headphone.

A footnote to the above is that it is only recently I woke up to the importance of the quality of the digital cable. If not chosen with care it can be responsible for nasty jitter which can make a mockery of the best DAC etc.

So I’ve actually come full circle, starting off his cheap headphones on a crystal set, ending up with a nice music system still listening on headphones!!! And I’m not expecting sympathy about having to use the Sennies while the Focals are being repaired because none would be appropriate. The AQ is currently VERY nice thank you!

 

[Bern2]

Not so sure I agree (detailed why below) about the quoted myth. FWIW (and we all have different brains to interpret what we hear so reactions will differ) here are my updated thoughts on the topic:

In general terms, as an owner of both, I would recommend the Sennheiser is a better fit for most people. Yes, the Focals are slightly better and more revealing BUT this will only be apparent in an optimised system. Here are my reasons –

1. The Focals are NOT twice as good as the price difference might suggest. Yes, they are better but do not agree it is a slam dunk match.

2. The Sennies weigh less and are more comfortable.

3. The Sennies have a 2 year guarantee while the Focals have only one. This is more important than you might first think as I’ve never had to have Sennies repaired but currently have my Focals in for repair at a (most likely high) cost, yet to be determined.

4. The Sennies do have a superior soundstage and are delight to listen to (mostly classical in my case) music.

My advice would be that the extra dollars required for the Focals over the Sennies would yield better results if spent elsewhere, in particular on the DAC.

Getting to where I am now has been a long, long and often wasteful road. I cut my teeth on the first audio delight with headphones listening to AM radio on a constructed crystal set back in the 1950’s. Yes, this audio idiot is pretty old at 82 next month!!! And I’ve trodden the vinyl path with fancy Linn Sondel tables, Koetsu cartridges etc etc and initially hated CDs. And that dislike was well founded as the conversion from digital to analog was pretty bad in those days with jitter fouling up the audio.

But technology has moved on so I sold my vinyl collection, then a few years later sold the CD collection and moved on to the expensive Meridian Sooloos server system. Even that is now abandoned in favour of Roon so the headphone setup now is:

Music files (around 16,000) on a 6TB HDD in this drive, processed by Roon, hardwired by a LAN connection to an Aurilac Aries streaming bridge –> AES balanced digital out via Canare DA206 115 ohm cabling -> Schiit Yggdrasil DAC -> bal;anced analog audio -> Auralic Tausus MkII amp -> balanced headphone.

A footnote to the above is that it is only recently I woke up to the importance of the quality of the digital cable. If not chosen with care it can be responsible for nasty jitter which can make a mockery of the best DAC etc.

So I’ve actually come full circle, starting off his cheap headphones on a crystal set, ending up with a nice music system still listening on headphones!!! And I’m not expecting sympathy about having to use the Sennies while the Focals are being repaired because none would be appropriate. The AQ is currently VERY nice thank you!

So glad that you've retained your hearing....what a blessing!

Bern

 

[Tassie Devil]

Thanks Bern but I must confess my hearing is not pristine - those upper frequencies are no longer appreciated. But it is not as bad as a visitor (who refuses to accept he has any deafness) who visited a month ago and had the volume turned up to extraorinarily high levels. Sadly he might have pre disposed the Focal Utopias to breakdown although this idea confuses me as no immediate damage was detected after his visit. That said I did sense "something was not right" about the system and that led me down the road of replacing digital cabling with the Canare. Bottom line is I have learned to be more careful in future when bragging about and showing off the headphone system!!!

 

[ShaggyFi]

Utopia has a very enjoyable sound signature but all the other phones like 1266, 009, 007, GS2000e, PS1000, HE6, HE1000, HD800s they all sound much more transparent and open than Utopia...

 

[xxx1313]

Utopia has a very enjoyable sound signature but all the other phones like 1266, 009, 007, GS2000e, PS1000, HE6, HE1000, HD800s they all sound much more transparent and open than Utopia...

It seems that you confuse resolution/transparency with treble glare. More open yes, but not more transparent.

 

[Tassie Devil]

It seems that you confuse resolution/transparency with treble glare. More open yes, but not more transparent.

Treble glare is usually caused by jitter, something which I thought for years, only sheeted back to the DAC. But I've discovered recently that incorrect cable link to the DAC can be also a source of jitter. [See a discussion on this topic here https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/digital/messages/18/184752.html] It seems the RCA connection is also bad, the BNC better and the balanced AES/BSU the best. From there cable quality can be a source of jitter. Fortunately there is good, not wildly expensive, cable out there. I now use Canare DA206 110 ohm cable and I understand Mogami also make good wire.

Note that I've always been a bit sceptical about cable claims, particularly those relating to high priced headphone cable but have tried to avoid cheap and nasty interconnects without going overboard. Using a contact cleaner spray (Deoxit Gold GS used here) from time to time is also good practice. And I do find balanced output yields more satisfying AQ.

Bottom line to my old brain is that it is pointless trying to use high end headphones in a less than optimised system as all they can do is highlight the nasties like jitter. That is why I suggest the Sennheiser HD800S is often the best choice. But if the budget allows, yes, the Focal Utopia is better in a top system.