[Dillan]

I think it's OK to venture off topic from time to time. It's hard to just drone on about pricing infrastructure and bias. It would be nice to keep the thread going in my opinion. A quick burst of discussion and information spreading is good, but ultimately doesn't change anything which is the whole goal I had in mind. When it comes down to it; this thread nor you or I will change anything.. but talking about it at least might benefit us consumers one way or another in the long run. I still wholeheartedly believe placebo, misinformation and bias all create a concoction of manipulated consumers and overpriced goods. This is actually our own fault and at the benefit of product makers.. but it is what it is.
 
I just really want the best for everyone involved in this hobby and I feel like it's possible the overall quality of the industry and of being a headphone audiophile in general has declined and is declining still.

 

[pctazhp]

  I think it's OK to venture off topic from time to time. It's hard to just drone on about pricing infrastructure and bias. It would be nice to keep the thread going in my opinion. A quick burst of discussion and information spreading is good, but ultimately doesn't change anything which is the whole goal I had in mind. When it comes down to it; this thread nor you or I will change anything.. but talking about it at least might benefit us consumers one way or another in the long run. I still wholeheartedly believe placebo, misinformation and bias all create a concoction of manipulated consumers and overpriced goods. This is actually our own fault and at the benefit of product makers.. but it is what it is.
 
I just really want the best for everyone involved in this hobby and I feel like it's possible the overall quality of the industry and of being a headphone audiophile in general has declined and is declining still.

I really have no problem with that. I personally am very active in several subjective threads. Just hope those who are now posting here about sound quality aren't deluding themselves into believing they are coming from an objective, scientific viewpoint which makes their posts somehow superior to the numerous subjective posts that populate most of HeadFi.
 
I also wonder how many of those who take manufacturers to task regarding pricing have any business background or expertise. Always easy to sit on the sidelines and pontificate. 

 

[glassmonkey]

  I still wholeheartedly believe placebo, misinformation and bias all create a concoction of manipulated consumers and overpriced goods. This is actually our own fault and at the benefit of product makers.. but it is what it is.
 
I just really want the best for everyone involved in this hobby and I feel like it's possible the overall quality of the industry and of being a headphone audiophile in general has declined and is declining still.

I think there is a counter-trend of rapidly improving products at the lower end of the price spectrum and way more options in the middle. The audiophile hobby is getting better for people in that price bracket, whilst people in the top bracket have massively diminishing returns. I think the overall quality of the industry is improving because in spite of all the expensive items joining the summit-fi ranks you've got $5 earbuds that compete on sound with $200 IEMs, and good DAPs and amps for under $100.
 
I don't think there has been a time with so much value for money.

 

[Argyris]

  I think there is a counter-trend of rapidly improving products at the lower end of the price spectrum and way more options in the middle. The audiophile hobby is getting better for people in that price bracket, whilst people in the top bracket have massively diminishing returns. I think the overall quality of the industry is improving because in spite of all the expensive items joining the summit-fi ranks you've got $5 earbuds that compete on sound with $200 IEMs, and good DAPs and amps for under $100.
 
I don't think there has been a time with so much value for money.

 
It's one of those weird paradoxes. On the one hand, what you're saying is absolutely right. There are all kinds of affordable options and new players entering the market. But in a way that's also the engine of the problem, because there's so much going on it's now confusing to newcomers just where to start. So they look for advice from people who are into the hobby...
 
...and that's where they run into the subjectivist bias. They might not be able to read a set of measurements at first, nor will they have experience with similar gear to what they're looking at to make comparative impressions useful (e.g. "It's like an HD 600 with more bass"), but they can understand "I bought this $$$$ amp and it made a night and day difference!" just fine. And once they start reading that kind of statement over and over, they'll most likely do one of two things: either they'll conclude they've wandered into the insane asylum by mistake and back out of the hobby entirely, or they'll assume that since everyone is saying it, it must be correct, so they'll start believing it, too. I wonder how many people who were attracted by the inexpensive gear ended up not buying any of it and just leaping right into the more expensive end of the pool just because they read so often that they need to spend more money?
 
I'm not saying having more options is a bad thing. It's a great thing. But it can be hard to separate the wheat from the chaff with so many choices, and with practically everything becoming a FOTM and the snobbish types looking down their noses at anybody who doesn't spend tens of thousands, I don't envy newcomers one bit trying to make sense of it all.
 
This is where I wish people like Tyll would look at inexpensive gear more often. He tends to stick with mid-priced and flagship-level stuff, which is understandable given the audience for IF. But for somebody just starting out, "mid-priced" these days is still at least three or four hundred dollars, which is more than they're likely willing to pay upfront. The WoF is a good place to start looking, and of course once you've heard enough gear you can get a rough idea what to expect from the measurements section. But it's still dominated by stuff from the upper end of the price spectrum, and the lower end gear on there consists mostly of old standbys. The PortaPro is decent for what it is, for instance, but I have to believe that there's something better (or at least which strikes a different set of compromises) lurking out there somewhere these days.

 

[pctazhp]

   
It's one of those weird paradoxes. On the one hand, what you're saying is absolutely right. There are all kinds of affordable options and new players entering the market. But in a way that's also the engine of the problem, because there's so much going on it's now confusing to newcomers just where to start. So they look for advice from people who are into the hobby...
 
...and that's where they run into the subjectivist bias. They might not be able to read a set of measurements at first, nor will they have experience with similar gear to what they're looking at to make comparative impressions useful (e.g. "It's like an HD 600 with more bass"), but they can understand "I bought this $$$$ amp and it made a night and day difference!" just fine. And once they start reading that kind of statement over and over, they'll most likely do one of two things: either they'll conclude they've wandered into the insane asylum by mistake and back out of the hobby entirely, or they'll assume that since everyone is saying it, it must be correct, so they'll start believing it, too. I wonder how many people who were attracted by the inexpensive gear ended up not buying any of it and just leaping right into the more expensive end of the pool just because they read so often that they need to spend more money?
 
I'm not saying having more options is a bad thing. It's a great thing. But it can be hard to separate the wheat from the chaff with so many choices, and with practically everything becoming a FOTM and the snobbish types looking down their noses at anybody who doesn't spend tens of thousands, I don't envy newcomers one bit trying to make sense of it all.
 
This is where I wish people like Tyll would look at inexpensive gear more often. He tends to stick with mid-priced and flagship-level stuff, which is understandable given the audience for IF. But for somebody just starting out, "mid-priced" these days is still at least three or four hundred dollars, which is more than they're likely willing to pay upfront. The WoF is a good place to start looking, and of course once you've heard enough gear you can get a rough idea what to expect from the measurements section. But it's still dominated by stuff from the upper end of the price spectrum, and the lower end gear on there consists mostly of old standbys. The PortaPro is decent for what it is, for instance, but I have to believe that there's something better (or at least which strikes a different set of compromises) lurking out there somewhere these days.

Snobbery is an equal opportunity offender. I have been involved with audio since the early 70s and have seen countless examples of self-proclaimed "objectivists" who have exceedingly long noses with which to look down. As to the big dollar crowd, for many of them money simply isn't something they need to worry about. Many of them just enjoy sharing their experiences with their toys with other similarly situated people without any hint of looking down on the financially less fortunate.
 
Many here seem so concerned with newcomers but act as if all people joining HeadFi for the first time just fell of the turnip truck. Most newcomers arrive here with varying degrees of life experiences, education level, good judgment, good table manners pounded into them by their mothers at a young age, etc. Sometimes when I read this thread it seems as if financial ruin stemming from headphones is one of the great social problems of the age. While I'm sure that some become addicted to the latest-and-greatest syndrome, I suspect that is a minuscule number compared to those whose lives have been ruined by drugs and alcohol- even just among HeadFi members.
 
At my age memory is not one of my long suits. But I recall sometime back in the late 70s or 80s, after The Absolute Sound and Stereophile Magazine were entrenched as the journals of high-dollar, high-end audio, someone started a journal aimed at the budget segment of the market. It did not last and I don't even remember its name. Yet TAS and Sterephile are still going strong. Not exactly sure what that means.

 

[JaeYoon]

Yeah I used to think thats crazy. Who the heck will pay thousands for headphones and valve amps and setups. Then buy another high end headphone.

But then when I used to work at a Casino. There tons of people who were crying to staff who bet their house property away. That they bet 10,000. They want the money back. Lots of drunk people betting things that is sacred.

Including a wife betting wedding ring plus 2,000 cash.

Makes people who spend thousands on Hifi very miniscule in comparison

 

[richard51]

   
At my age memory is not one of my long suits. But I recall sometime back in the late 70s or 80s, after The Absolute Sound and Stereophile Magazine were entrenched as the journals of high-dollar, high-end audio, someone started a journal aimed at the budget segment of the market. It did not last and I don't even remember its name. Yet TAS and Sterephile are still going strong. Not exactly sure what that means.

i know exactly what that means.... people dont want to "work" for a solution... they want to pay.... they want to know what is the best and the  amount to pay for.... they dont want to try hard, think, work for a cheap solution....

 

[glassmonkey]

 

  I think there is a counter-trend of rapidly improving products at the lower end of the price spectrum and way more options in the middle. The audiophile hobby is getting better for people in that price bracket, whilst people in the top bracket have massively diminishing returns. I think the overall quality of the industry is improving because in spite of all the expensive items joining the summit-fi ranks you've got $5 earbuds that compete on sound with $200 IEMs, and good DAPs and amps for under $100.
 
I don't think there has been a time with so much value for money.

 
It's one of those weird paradoxes. On the one hand, what you're saying is absolutely right. There are all kinds of affordable options and new players entering the market. But in a way that's also the engine of the problem, because there's so much going on it's now confusing to newcomers just where to start. So they look for advice from people who are into the hobby...
 
...the snobbish types looking down their noses at anybody who doesn't spend tens of thousands, I don't envy newcomers one bit trying to make sense of it all.
 
This is where I wish people like Tyll would look at inexpensive gear more often. He tends to stick with mid-priced and flagship-level stuff, which is understandable given the audience for IF. But for somebody just starting out, "mid-priced" these days is still at least three or four hundred dollars, which is more than they're likely willing to pay upfront. ...

I do a bit of reviewing here on HeadFi, and I can tell you that you don't want to seek out reviews for stuff you may not like. I also think that once you get used to a certain level of performance, the small differences in resolution and soundstage between headphones become much more noticeable. I can certainly say that more expensive doesn't equal better. I personally thought the FiBASS was an IEM for vocal lovers who don't give a crap about having any depth to the sound, in other words a $999 worthless IEM to me, but I'd heartily recommend the MEE Pinnacle P1 ($200), Fidue A65 ($50), and VE Monk Plus ($5) for people at different price brackets. There are a ton of people reviewing and discussing headphones below $100, and there is just as much snake oil there. There are lots of people who will try to tell you that cheap Chinese headphone X is soooooo much better than expensive flagship Y. They are usually chock full of praerie oysters.

 

[sonitus mirus]

  Snobbery is an equal opportunity offender. I have been involved with audio since the early 70s and have seen countless examples of self-proclaimed "objectivists" who have exceedingly long noses with which to look down. As to the big dollar crowd, for many of them money simply isn't something they need to worry about. Many of them just enjoy sharing their experiences with their toys with other similarly situated people without any hint of looking down on the financially less fortunate.
 
Many here seem so concerned with newcomers but act as if all people joining HeadFi for the first time just fell of the turnip truck. Most newcomers arrive here with varying degrees of life experiences, education level, good judgment, good table manners pounded into them by their mothers at a young age, etc. Sometimes when I read this thread it seems as if financial ruin stemming from headphones is one of the great social problems of the age. While I'm sure that some become addicted to the latest-and-greatest syndrome, I suspect that is a minuscule number compared to those whose lives have been ruined by drugs and alcohol- even just among HeadFi members.
 
At my age memory is not one of my long suits. But I recall sometime back in the late 70s or 80s, after The Absolute Sound and Stereophile Magazine were entrenched as the journals of high-dollar, high-end audio, someone started a journal aimed at the budget segment of the market. It did not last and I don't even remember its name. Yet TAS and Sterephile are still going strong. Not exactly sure what that means.

 
To me, it doesn't really matter if a participant in these forums is a genius pauper or an ignorant millionaire.  I want to know the truth about the quality of the products available from a technical perspective.

 

[RRod]

  Many here seem so concerned with newcomers but act as if all people joining HeadFi for the first time just fell of the turnip truck. Most newcomers arrive here with varying degrees of life experiences, education level, good judgment, good table manners pounded into them by their mothers at a young age, etc. Sometimes when I read this thread it seems as if financial ruin stemming from headphones is one of the great social problems of the age. While I'm sure that some become addicted to the latest-and-greatest syndrome, I suspect that is a minuscule number compared to those whose lives have been ruined by drugs and alcohol- even just among HeadFi members.

 
Well luckily audio gear doesnt' seem to follow the "loses 1/2 the value once you drive it off the lot" rule.
 
I am one of those people who, despite having lots of education in many mathy things that aren't electrical engineering, paid lots more on an initial setup than what I have now, because I simply wasn't on guard for just how subjective everything is on this site. After finding this sub-forum and putting those math skills to use, I've basically sold off everything fancy except my HD800 (which I keep around for the low distortion #s). It's not that it ruins lives, but it certainly wastes money that could be going towards more useful things.
 
Just look at the new Realiser. For $1000 (at the kickstarter) you could have gotten a device that can turn any decent set of cans into an impressive facsimile of any multi-$1e6 speaker setup you can find. Yet you're more likely to have someone recommend spending the same amount of cash on an amp/DAC combo to "fix" the problems of a single set of cans. Perhaps if all the people who supported "synergy" instead supported real virtualization efforts, stuff like the Realiser wouldn't need to cost $1k.

 

[pctazhp]

   
To me, it doesn't really matter if a participant in these forums is a genius pauper or an ignorant millionaire.  I want to know the truth about the quality of the products available from a technical perspective.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem you will get much of that on this thread.

 

[pctazhp]

   
Well luckily audio gear doesnt' seem to follow the "loses 1/2 the value once you drive it off the lot" rule.
 
I am one of those people who, despite having lots of education in many mathy things that aren't electrical engineering, paid lots more on an initial setup than what I have now, because I simply wasn't on guard for just how subjective everything is on this site. After finding this sub-forum and putting those math skills to use, I've basically sold off everything fancy except my HD800 (which I keep around for the low distortion #s). It's not that it ruins lives, but it certainly wastes money that could be going towards more useful things.
 
Just look at the new Realiser. For $1000 (at the kickstarter) you could have gotten a device that can turn any decent set of cans into an impressive facsimile of any multi-$1e6 speaker setup you can find. Yet you're more likely to have someone recommend spending the same amount of cash on an amp/DAC combo to "fix" the problems of a single set of cans. Perhaps if all the people who supported "synergy" instead supported real virtualization efforts, stuff like the Realiser wouldn't need to cost $1k.

I went through that back in my audiophile days. But I don't see how a bunch of people making unsubstantiated claims that X product costs too much is really going to help. Hopefully, some newcomers will read some of this thread and at least take things slow at the start. But realistically, I don't think that is going to going to happen very often. There's a certain quixotic quality to this thread.

 

[sonitus mirus]

  Unfortunately it doesn't seem you will get much of that on this thread.

 
Sometimes the lack of reliable information says as much to me as a peer reviewed scientific paper.

 

[Argyris]

  There are a ton of people reviewing and discussing headphones below $100, and there is just as much snake oil there. There are lots of people who will try to tell you that cheap Chinese headphone X is soooooo much better than expensive flagship Y. They are usually chock full of praerie oysters.

 
That's the Head-Fi I remember from around when I joined in 2010. Everything was a giant killer. It's sort of the inverse of the problem we're talking about in this thread, almost a counterculture movement against it. And like all countercultures, it exists as a reactionary entity, and therefore it tends to make the same mistakes as its antecedent, just in the opposite direction. When you're guided by philosophy and a burning desire for reality to validate your beliefs, it's difficult to be objective.
 
I feel like over time the Summit-Fi front has taken more ground. Increasingly I'm seeing people begin a post with, "I know that I need to spend at least $$$ on amplification for <headphone x> in order to get the best out of it, so which $$$ amp should I buy...". I'm also unfortunately seeing people say, "I really want to buy <headphone x>, but I don't have enough to buy a $$$($...) amp, and I know that it's not worth it unless I have a good amp, so what other headphones would you recommend instead?" The HD 600 gets this quite frequently. It always breaks my heart when I see it because I know how good this thing is, and to see somebody just flat out give up on it (several times already the poster just walked away, presumably without getting anything at all) is tragic. It's the diametric opposite result from what this hobby should be about, which is finding gear that lets you enjoy your music to the fullest.

 

[JaeYoon]

  i know exactly what that means.... people dont want to "work" for a solution... they want to pay.... they want to know what is the best and the  amount to pay for.... they dont want to try hard, think, work for a cheap solution....

I was like that when I first started. I remember one of first questions I asked was "what's the best headphone I can buy for this price, etc"
People will give me all sorts of answers, "this will give you best sound quality!"
I ended up getting curious and trying out all sorts of gear. I began to get some serious beatdowns from people via PM. It was really good advice too.
A lot of rewiring my brain too.
 
It took till recently that I stopped going for that Perfect Sound quality. As quality doesn't mean too much to me. It took a lot of trying out equipment, 
I do notice I like sonic signatures that are slightly neutral and slightly warm. Cayin N5 has a signature that adds organic warm which I really did enjoy. I love excellent produced timber as well.
Meze 99 classics brought to me a Fun Sound signature that really got me to expand further. Shanling M2/M5 gave me that neutral synergy to mix with as well.
 
I just started listening to people telling me to stop looking for perfect sound quality and looking for what I like in music.
I disliked the term basshead at first in beginning, but I appreciate what headphones like ATH M50x and V-Moda M100 etc, can do for electronic music with bass response, etc.
I keep my equipment now in Mid-Range and just try out stuff that have signatures that I might like.