[Shanling]

I understand it's out of your hands personally, but there's no excuse for this limitation. I am spelling out exactly how easy this is to fix, and giving you arguments to take back to the dev team and superiors to get this nonsense issue resolved once and for all.

Your software devs are ruining your brand for absolutely no reason, since other devices running the weaker Ingenic X1000E chips don't have this limitation and your software dev team created the limitation in the first place.

There is no inherent 20,000 track limit - that was a software design choice and it is a choice easily modified. I assume that someone thought they could upsell more expensive Android DAP's without that limitation by just not supporting more than 20,000 tracks in the library for these MIPS architecture chips, but instead, this nonsense makes me distrust the Shanling brand and I do not want to ever buy more Shanling products, especially not at a higher price, because I don't trust that Shanling has the power or desire to make good changes for its customers. At best you have a rouge software dev team, who refuses to do simple and easy code work and regression testing and at worst Shanling has decided to tier their players in a foolsih way to encourage upselling which is definitely NOT WORKING.

All that should need to change is ONE number in the firmware.

About the file limit, this is something that goes back to the days of our very first players in 2015, which were running software by HiBy. These models had it set at 15 000 files. When we moved to MTouch, our software team was testing 25 000 file limit at first, but then chose 20 000 file limit, claiming the limit needs to be there due to memory limitations of the hardware. That applies to our system. If RockBox or the old Fiio's system behaves differently, good for them.

If I remember correctly, HiBy fixed their file limit just last year in October.

We hope that our software team will also manage to fix this issue one day and will gladly release it as a firmware update.



These limits predate any of our Android players, so any of these speculations about deliberate limiting are vastly misleading.

We never tried to force product separation based on the software. From our cheapest player to the most premium ones, we always offered the same software platform, with the same features. It was the sound section (and other hardware/constructions) that made the difference. M0 Pro and M5 Ultra stand alongside each other on the software side.

 

[hanskey]

Mate, I am software engineer for over 20 years, and let me tell you why it may be not easy to fix compared to other products

This device firmware is running in the space constraint by hardware architecture, and if database format and handling is dependent on this architecture - it can't be changed as a number in the code. Whole database structure and it's usage may be principally dependant on architecture limitations coming from the chipset and it's software instrumentation kits.

Yeah, I understand that software is constrained by hardware. I write embedded device code too, my dude, but I really doubt it is that hard to fix. Yeah, probably fair to say not quite as easy as I represented, but certainly not unresolvable by any stretch of the imagination.

Hiby, Rockbox and Fiio were able to overcome the same limitation (Fiio did it within weeks) on the predecessor chip, the Ingenic X1000E, that is also used by prior models of Shanlings running MIPS chips.

The is the new, better, faster, larger, Ingenic X2000E on the M1S - so I'm not buying that this is a difficult issue in any real sense.

More to the point, I won't be buying more Shanling products unless this issue is resolved and I would not have bought this one if I knew about the 20,000 track limit in the library at the time of purchase, because that limit does not fit my requirements, period.

 

[hanskey]

About the file limit, this is something that goes back to the days of our very first players in 2015, which were running software by HiBy. These models had it set at 15 000 files. When we moved to MTouch, our software team was testing 25 000 file limit at first, but then chose 20 000 file limit, claiming the limit needs to be there due to memory limitations of the hardware. That applies to our system. If RockBox or the old Fiio's system behaves differently, good for them.

If I remember correctly, HiBy fixed their file limit just last year in October.

We hope that our software team will also manage to fix this issue one day and will gladly release it as a firmware update.



These limits predate any of our Android players, so any of these speculations about deliberate limiting are vastly misleading.

We never tried to force product separation based on the software. From our cheapest player to the most premium ones, we always offered the same software platform, with the same features. It was the sound section (and other hardware/constructions) that made the difference. M0 Pro and M5 Ultra stand alongside each other on the software side.

Well I'm glad to hear it is not an intentional sales tactic, obviously. Thank you for this helpful insight into the software development history.

Unfortunately, none of that resolves the issue. I had and have no expectation that this issue will be addressed in a timely manner, if at all, and I already am not buying more from Shanling until these software issues are resolved. I hope that changes and we can do business again because I really prefer dedicated DAP's to phones and your device is otherwise excellent.

Have a good one & I wish you well.

 

[losber]

As I know that limit is related to sqlite3 library performance on Ingenic X1000E in HiBy OS. In latest HiBy OS (Tempotec V3 fw v1.0) that limit is 50000. The previous way to fix that limit was manual patching the binary (another one) and obviously limited by max value of 16 bit unsigned integer 65535 or 0xFFFF. Last known mod by snoopy112 set that limit to 65000 (0xFDE8) https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...oved-sound-and-bluetooth.872288/post-15300999
There was no technical statement about lack performance same realization of sqlite3 library on X2000E yet.

 

[hanskey]

As I know that limit is related to sqlite3 library performance on Ingenic X1000E in HiBy OS. In latest HiBy OS (Tempotec V3 fw v1.0) that limit is 50000. The previous way to fix that limit was manual patching the binary (another one) and obviously limited by max value of 16 bit unsigned integer 65535 or 0xFFFF. Last known mod by snoopy112 set that limit to 65000 (0xFDE8) https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...oved-sound-and-bluetooth.872288/post-15300999
There was no technical statement about lack performance same realization of sqlite3 library on X2000E yet.

So basically what I said - change one number, issue gone. Just unacceptable.

This also confirms my other, unvoiced, hypothesis that the track limitation in library comes from someone that is not the end user deciding what acceptable performance looks like and not from a true limitation.

Most certainly the Fiio M3K has a noticeable performance dip on X1000E when you throw 50,000+ tracks at it, and yet I found that to be an acceptable tradeoff to be able to load and play all my music, and easily swap between shuffle-all tracks and playing individual albums sequentially, all without draining my phone battery.

Anyway, I'm done with this topic. It's within Shanling's power to fix this and they don't have any valid excuse.

In the meantime, these devices are a hard pass for me and I regret spending the money on it. At a minimum, any artificial track # limitations of the software should be listed in the product information available where these are sold, not just in this forum, so users are not stuck with a device that can never be what they thought they were buying. As of yet, after 6 years of this limitation, it is not spelled out in any of Shanling's product documentation provided to sellers and reviewers, leaving the public to find out the hard way. That's not a good way to build brand loyalty, period.

For those of you tempted to advise me to just get a headphone DAC/AMP for my phone to make it all better - save it for a newb. I've owned several, and now own 0. All I got was much worse battery life of phone, extra device to charge, meh SQ "improvement," and extra cables and bulk in the pocket. I absolutely will "settle" for "less good" SQ from phone's headphone-out than put up with that nonsense again, and since I only use highly sensitive headphones, the amp section is irrelevant in the first place.

Edit: I've been in this forum or lurking for nearly a decade seeking price-performance sweet spot equipment so I can afford to collect an ass-ton of actual music. TotL isn't interesting to me, because that inhibits the whole reason for good sound equipment - listening to more and more good music. I collect several hundred new albums a year, so hyper-expensive and usually fragile gear is a non-starter.

Peace out

 

[Sudmanche]

@Shanling Are there any developers still actively working on fixes for the M1S? i.e. will there be any more fixes, or is this the final software version?
If they are working, can you let us know which items they are looking to fix please? for me the button issue is critical, without a fix for this I cannot justify keeping the player, and it will be going back in 5 days unless I know it will get fixed.

 

[pietro77]

I don't have any hope that they will fix this issue.
Another bug, when resume mode is set on location and for instance I listen one folder and turn off unit at some point, it remember position, but if after power up I go from that position to another folder, listen it whole and let unit off itself(when I fall asleep), after power up it back to the position from first folder, more intuitive is that after power up it will start with 1st song of second folder.

 

[Shanling]

@Shanling Are there any developers still actively working on fixes for the M1S? i.e. will there be any more fixes, or is this the final software version?
If they are working, can you let us know which items they are looking to fix please? for me the button issue is critical, without a fix for this I cannot justify keeping the player, and it will be going back in 5 days unless I know it will get fixed.

Yes, it's still on the list of our supported models. But we don't have any info on when is next firmware update planned or what it will include.

 

[Vaventus]

Hello. @Shanling , is there an answer from the engineers on the question of how to properly disassemble the player for repair?

 

[Phred68]

My goodness. Twenty THOUSAND songs isn't enough on a portable DAP? Talk about 1st world problems. That is literally MONTHS of listening. I have about 500 hi-res favourites in a mix folder, plus about 200 albums in their own folders. I can't listen to everything as it is. I just make an occasional switcheroo of tracks/albums to freshen things up. Anyway, my two cents. If anyone is offended, sorry. I just feel we should focus on feedback for performance and function. Cheers all!

 

[XTF1]

My goodness. Twenty THOUSAND songs isn't enough on a portable DAP? Talk about 1st world problems. That is literally MONTHS of listening. I have about 500 hi-res favourites in a mix folder, plus about 200 albums in their own folders. I can't listen to everything as it is. I just make an occasional switcheroo of tracks/albums to freshen things up. Anyway, my two cents. If anyone is offended, sorry. I just feel we should focus on feedback for performance and function. Cheers all!

It’s not about listening to all the tracks in a row from #1 to #20,000, it’s about not having to decide what you bring with you and what you don’t… Being able to listen whatever you want, whenever you want, wherever you are…
If I had to choose 500 “favorites”, I’m sure the next track I want to listen to is exactly the one I didn’t copy on my DAP, precisely in this place where I can’t stream it.

 

[InvisibleInk]

Our team talked about this with our software department multiple times. This limit has been in our system since 2018 and software team so far hasn't adjusted it.

Easy. Ditch MtouchOS and license HiByOS for all your devices. Downsize the intransigent software team to only those necessary for installing and supporting HiByOS.

Problem solved.

 

[hanskey]

My goodness. Twenty THOUSAND songs isn't enough on a portable DAP? Talk about 1st world problems. That is literally MONTHS of listening. I have about 500 hi-res favourites in a mix folder, plus about 200 albums in their own folders. I can't listen to everything as it is. I just make an occasional switcheroo of tracks/albums to freshen things up. Anyway, my two cents. If anyone is offended, sorry. I just feel we should focus on feedback for performance and function. Cheers all!

Not offended, but isn't the entirety of head-fi devoted to solving first-world problems?

If the limit was advertised, which it is not, I just wouldn't have bought it, because I would have known it didn't suit me - no biggie. Obviously I found out about the limit after I could return it for a refund, so I simply want a feature added that other similar DAPs have.

I don't only listen to hires, because a lot of my music isn't even available in hires and I've been collecting music for decades. I thought I was buying a DAP that could hold the whole collection without compromise, since 1 TB is available, and my cheaper M3K can handle the collection.

I didn't get what I thought I was buying.

Yeah, it can hold it, but I have to choose to either shuffle-all by removing all subfolders or live with only album/artist playthrough and keep the subfolders. Removing all the files from 6000+ subfolders is literally weeks of work, so, of course I'm not satisfied and displeased the limit wasn't disclosed except to be buried in this thread.

Cheers!

 

[Phred68]

Not offended, but isn't the entirety of head-fi devoted to solving first-world problems?

If the limit was advertised, which it is not, I just wouldn't have bought it, because I would have known it didn't suit me - no biggie. Obviously I found out about the limit after I could return it for a refund, so I simply want a feature added that other similar DAPs have.

I don't only listen to hires, because a lot of my music isn't even available in hires and I've been collecting music for decades. I thought I was buying a DAP that could hold the whole collection without compromise, since 1 TB is available, and my cheaper M3K can handle the collection.

I didn't get what I thought I was buying.

Yeah, it can hold it, but I have to choose to either shuffle-all by removing all subfolders or live with only album/artist playthrough and keep the subfolders. Removing all the files from 6000+ subfolders is literally weeks of work, so, of course I'm not satisfied and displeased the limit wasn't disclosed except to be buried in this thread.

Cheers!

Fair enough. We all have different needs, so I get that. If it really is an easy fix, then that needs to happen pronto.

 

[hanskey]

Fair enough. We all have different needs, so I get that. If it really is an easy fix, then that needs to happen pronto.

Yeah, I was really grouchy about it, but I won't waste any more energy being angry about it. I will keep pressuring Shanling to make their very good players great and not buy any more of their products and recommend that others pick a brand that cares more about user's feedback until the issue is resolved. At which point, I will be happy to buy and recommend their products to others.

There's really several easy ways this issue could be resolved:

1. Bump up the track limit in the library DB from 20,000 to a higher number relevant for 1TB of storage. This is legitimately easy with the trade-off that the DB may be noticeably slower, like with the less powerful Fiio M3K.

2. Add a command to "shuffle-all tracks" to the File Browsing interface, and enable that command to work with structured subfolders. Also pretty darn easy fix, and without slowing the DB.

Neither of those are hard to implement as they were solved in other players on similar or less powerful hardware (and once available at less than half the price) at least 4 years ago.

The issue appears to be that Shanling doesn't have the ability to get their own dev team to resolve this issue, which has been requested time and again for over 6 years, so that's a really embarrassing state of affairs. I'm not privy to any insider information and can only speculate why the dev team is allowed to screw up the brand's image in the marketplace, but this isn't actually a hard problem.

The devs just haven't listened to their *paying customers* for over 6 years and frankly the reason(s) for that are beside the point. The paying customers don't care anyway. We just want the issues resolved. Given this history of not listening to *paying customers*, the lack of action moves from mildly annoying to outright anti-customer, anti-money-making behavior which is totally bizarre and unfortunate from a for-profit company, especially when they don't advertise this limit anywhere you can purchase the device, nor anywhere the device was reviewed.

Have a great day!!