[kelly]

Morality is not something my beliefs allow me to argue about. I'm sorry if it seemed otherwise, but my stance on this topic is purely a legal one.

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly ....but my stance on this topic is purely a legal one.

So is mine. Though I'm not certain, I believe what this man is being charged with a crime that is punishable by up to five years in prison, and likely an additional fine. If the evidence shows he did commit the crime in question, then I hope he gets the maximum penalty.

 

[ArChaos]

Quote:

Originally posted by 2 channel Moral absolutes and universal morality are two entirely different subjects. I do believe in Moral absolutes as well as absolute truth, and believe they are both found in the Bible and in the Bible alone. Just because they exsist however, doesn't mean people universally conform to and/or believe in them. For fear of getting a bit deeper, Who defines the "Universal Moral Values"? 2

You can call my "Universal Moral Values" - "MORAL ABSOLUTES" if it makes you happy...

I do not find the difference between the two... - but I find big difference between MORAL ABSOLUTES - as you call them - which I believe are something inherent in every human beeing regardles of religion, culture and so on to ABSOLUTE TRUTH (likewise "universal morality") which I believe does NOT exist because of it being dependent on culture, religion, place and so on...

Who defines the "Universal Moral Values"? That's exacly the point. They just *ARE* in most of us and they are only valid if they are transcendent of culture, place religion and so on. I hoped the example I gave about NOT DOING ONTO OTHERS WHAT YOU WOULDN'T BE DONE ONTO YOURSELF is one of this absolute values. It's in the bible, it's on all religions and it' beyond religion - I'm a completely atheistic person and still I find this, like many other "COMMANDS" writen in the bible as "MORAL ABSOLUTES" (I like your name for it ...) If at least some people here (take out the cat-barbecue-killers...) would find this example moraly wrong THIS in itself would be the proof of me beeing wrong. (I would be still be in good company, since according to one of the most proeminent jewish philosophers of all times this is the most fundamental principle of the bible...)
I bite my tongue every time we come back to it because the question of "good" versus "evil" is one of the most interesting subjects in human existence and I don't want to take the thread there unless TimSchirmer would feel confortable with it...

So going back to the issue - does everybody - or at least THE GREAT MAJORITY of the people here - find the deeds of this sick person MORALY repulsive ? If YES - we have here a "MORAL ABSOLUTE" consenzus, if NO - I can only "go home" and weep about it... Secondly - does the GREAT MAJORITY agrees that law should bassically go hand in hand with "MORAL VALUES"? If YES, we have a moral-based society, If NO - I would prefer to return the keys to the "Maker" - whoever HE is...

All the other issues raised here are debates on WHERE to draw the border line - very important by themselves, but without agreement on these first two, there's a discussion between deaf people...

 

[2 channel]

Quote:

Originally posted by ArChaos You can call my "Universal Moral Values" - "MORAL ABSOLUTES" if it makes you happy... I do not find the difference between the two... - but I find big difference between MORAL ABSOLUTES - as you call them - which I believe are something inherent in every human beeing regardles of religion, culture and so on to ABSOLUTE TRUTH (likewise "universal morality") which I believe does NOT exist because of it being dependent on culture, religion, place and so on...

Huge diff between Universal Moral values and Moral absolutes.
Let's take 911 for instance. To the militant muslam, there was nothing wrong with the behavior of the men responsible. In fact, they were martyred so they are better than the average muslim. In that circle, the Universal Moral Value says that was OK. The Moral Absolute however, which must exist regardless of culture, outside of man says that it was indeed an immoral muderous attack. The "Moral Absolute" exists whether people want to subscribe to it or not.
As it is with Absoute Truth. This also must exist outside of man.

to say that there are no absolutes is contradictory in and of its self since that is an absolute statement.

Now, back to the cat;
While tragic and terrible, why are the same people that say this guy was wrong for doing that so willing to perform an equally brutal act on him?

And...as much as I'd like to see it, can we really legislate morality? Murder= wrong, Rape= wrong, theft=wrong

But what about other moral issues? Sex outside of a Marital union, homosexuality, abortion, All are moral issues with various opinions yet still, no universl moral view.

I guess my point is, where do we draw the line? for every tortured cat you can find Ill bet I can find 5 mistreated children that were a result of a pre-marital sexual encounter yet no one is willing to persecute the mother of that child for her moral laps, or the father that is no longer in the picture for that matter.

just $.02 from 2

 

[a1leyez0nm3]

Quote:

Originally posted by 2 channel Huge diff between Universal Moral values and Moral absolutes. Let's take 911 for instance. To the militant muslam, there was nothing wrong with the behavior of the men responsible. In fact, they were martyred so they are better than the average muslim. In that circle, the Universal Moral Value says that was OK. The Moral Absolute however, which must exist regardless of culture, outside of man says that it was indeed an immoral muderous attack. The "Moral Absolute" exists whether people want to subscribe to it or not. As it is with Absoute Truth. This also must exist outside of man. to say that there are no absolutes is contradictory in and of its self since that is an absolute statement. Now, back to the cat; While tragic and terrible, why are the same people that say this guy was wrong for doing that so willing to perform an equally brutal act on him? And...as much as I'd like to see it, can we really legislate morality? Murder= wrong, Rape= wrong, theft=wrong But what about other moral issues? Sex outside of a Marital union, homosexuality, abortion, All are moral issues with various opinions yet still, no universl moral view. I guess my point is, where do we draw the line? for every tortured cat you can find Ill bet I can find 5 mistreated children that were a result of a pre-marital sexual encounter yet no one is willing to persecute the mother of that child for her moral laps, or the father that is no longer in the picture for that matter. just $.02 from 2

I agree.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by 2 channel I guess my point is, where do we draw the line? for every tortured cat you can find Ill bet I can find 5 mistreated children that were a result of a pre-marital sexual encounter yet no one is willing to persecute the mother of that child for her moral laps, or the father that is no longer in the picture for that matter.

The flaw in that argument is that this is not a zero-sum game. Saying that it should be illegal to torture pets doesn't mean allowing child abuse. We can go after more than one kind of abuse at once

 

[kerelybonto]

I bet you people think it's infinely worse to kill someone and make a lampshade out of him than just to kill him, don't you?

Why?

kerelybonto

 

[ArChaos]

Quote:

Originally posted by 2 channel Huge diff between Universal Moral Values and Moral absolutes. Let's take 911 for instance. To the militant muslam, there was nothing wrong with the behavior of the men responsible. In fact, they were martyred so they are better than the average muslim. In that circle, the Universal Moral Value says that was OK. The Moral Absolute however, which must exist regardless of culture, outside of man says that it was indeed an immoral muderous attack. The "Moral Absolute" exists whether people want to subscribe to it or not. As it is with Absoute Truth. This also must exist outside of man. to say that there are no absolutes is contradictory in and of its self since that is an absolute statement. Now, back to the cat; While tragic and terrible, why are the same people that say this guy was wrong for doing that so willing to perform an equally brutal act on him? And...as much as I'd like to see it, can we really legislate morality? Murder= wrong, Rape= wrong, theft=wrong But what about other moral issues? Sex outside of a Marital union, homosexuality, abortion, All are moral issues with various opinions yet still, no universl moral view. I guess my point is, where do we draw the line? for every tortured cat you can find Ill bet I can find 5 mistreated children that were a result of a pre-marital sexual encounter yet no one is willing to persecute the mother of that child for her moral laps, or the father that is no longer in the picture for that matter. just $.02 from 2

dear 2 channel
I don't find the point in going on arguing with you about semantics, consistency in logic, self ref. sentences and recursive structures and processes . I could recomend you a great book on the subject :- GODEL, ESCHER, BACH: AN ETHERNAL GOLDEN BRAID by DOUGLAS R. HOFSTADTER.(Pulitzer Prize Winner-1980)

Just for the taste of it, I would like to point that your sentence - QUOTE:"In that circle, the Universal Moral Value says that was OK" - is BY DEFINITION an inherent contradiction...A circle cannot decide BY DEFINITION what the Universal Moral Value says...This is BY DEFINITION outside it's authority - It's "UNIVERSAL', you see...outside the circle's jurisdiction...


QUOTE - "The "Moral Absolute" exists whether people want to subscribe to it or not."

The "Moral Absolute" exists ONLY if people choose to subscribe to it! THATS the one and only thing that makes it "ABSOLUTE" - Look out for the definition of "absolute" versus "relative"



QUOTE - "I guess my point is, where do we draw the line?"

THE LINE IS THE LAW!!! If you don't like it, try to change it by democratic ways. Until you succed, abide by it as it is. That's the line in a democratic society - JUST AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally posted by ai0tron He should probably be sent to a mental institution you clod. Being insane is an illness not a punishable offense!! If he's not insane he shouldnt be punished with jail time, its a cat... It's an animal, we kill them all the time. I once blasted the side of a birds head off with my slingshot, I looked at it and said damn that was a good shot. I felt bad, but, it was a damn good shot, I mean, it was a head shot, with a slingshot for the love of god, from about 50 feet even. I deserve to be proud of that, that took skill! And I did it with a rock, a mishappen little rock I found on the ground, I was the superior species that day, I didn't cheat! But your probably thinking that figures, well, I'm thinking it's perfectly normal. Why don't you call animal cruelty on the FARMERS who tie up baby calves so they cant move, and slaughter them so we can have soft meat. Can't you just see the farmers taunting the calves with cries of "moo" "mooo". This IS fucn ********, I CANT believe that this alleged "petition" is being put online so thousands upon thousands of people can make a SNAP decision based on a misleading and incomplete representation of the facts. Do you think its fair that this guy is judged by thousands of people who are being emotionally manipulated into signing a petition that takes all of 2 seconds to accomplish? NO IT'S NOT fair, it's ********, this petition is a fraud all of you who signed it are a disgrace to the justice system. Besides it's a fucn cat, 10 million kids each year harm a cat in some way shape or form, slingshots, firecrackers, rocks, pellet guns, who gives **** if her roasted one on the grill. Baby sitters have put babies in the microwave, hamsters, cats, you name it baby sitters have nuked it. There are bigger fish to fry, forget about the cat killer.

Further proof that you are a complete mentally deranged idiot, as if we need more proof. Go kill yourself, *******.

 

[grinch]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly One other thing. Pretending to seperate enforcement (implementation) from law (design) is naive. If we only did "what was right", don't you think we should have by now liberated the Chinese from their oppressive government? We didn't intervene when we saw student protesters run over by tank! Why did we not intervene there and yet we intervened in Kuwait? Two reasons: we had financial stake in Kuwait and we had the resources to implement our solution. We do not have the resources to enforce this moral dictation that most of you think should be the role of our government. And, for the record, if we did have the resources (let's just say I'm not being taxed AT ALL and we still have a magical surplus of government monies), I still would not want the government involved in such activities.

(i'm not replying to kelly's post necessarily, but i think it is a very prudent paragraph that should be brought to all of our short attention spans.)

i think the role of government in society has changed from what it was originally (in my eyes) supposed to stand for. i think our lack of intelligence has changed the government's role into "saving us from ourselves." laws against murder? that's a given. but how about a speed limit. if we, as a people, were responsible and intelligent we would not need speed limits. everyone would drive at a speed that would not indanger themselves or anybody else.. but does that happen? hell no. the drinking age of 21? if we were responsible and taught our children about drugs and responsible use of the legal ones (

) would we need such laws?

i think our society is totally screwed and a ****load of dusty roman souls are laughing at us and our futures.

but at least when the nuclear explosion comes to spread my electrons acrossed the eastern seaboard, there will be no dumb redneck saying "meow, meow" in the background.

 

[Satori]

That dude just has problems. How could some one do this without any remorse?

 

[andrzejpw]

has it been confirmed that he was drunk?

 

[ai0tron]

hey Beagle,

I 've taken 3 IQ tests in my days and I guarantee I've scored higher than you can even count on all of them. I took the last one in my late teens and the first one before I could remember. Stop calling me names, see a doctor about the size of your penis, and go **** yourself.


YOU KNOW WHATS FUNNY??? Some of you think that you have the right to jail this guy because he tortured a cat, and then you claim that I and others like me are suffering from some type of meglomania because we think it's our right as the superior species to do as we please.

The superior species sees that eventually the matters of the cat and the roasting will never be of consequence to anyone, and that the travesty of injustice being perpetrated upon this man through the internet is of real consequence.

The superior species realizes that if we go through life ***** footing around we eventually accomplish nothing except the continued accomplishment of nothing. And those of you who don't ***** foot around ALL the time, and actually **** someone or something over NOW AND AGAIN so things will go well for you use a situation like this to make yourselves feel like god loving humanitarians.

**** I kill oysters all day long, I jam a metal spike into there soft insides and pry open there shells, tearing their bodies in half, then I thow them in these trays so barbarians can come down from the hills and slurp them without even chewing.



"That dude just has problems. How could some one do this without any remorse?"

Maybe he was beaten, maybe his father beat his mother, maybe he was sexually abused, maybe nobody gave a **** about him and just called him a stupid redneck his whole life and thats what he eventually became.


We take the bones and intestines of pigs and grind them to feed to our kids!!

MMM YUMMY!! We throw lobsters into the pot ALIVE, HOW MANY OF YOU LIKE LOBSTER??? Oh thats OK, though, thats FOOD. Its ok if animals suffer for FOOD.

I LOVE it, gimme another lobster please, and make sure his heart is just stopping when he hits my plate!!

I once took a crab when I was a kid, held it in my hand and put a screwdriver straight through it's body... simply out of curiosity. I felt terrible, his legs stretched way out and then slowly closed up as the life faded from it's dead body. Literally for days I had that image of it dying in my mind, it's little eye stalks folding over and glazing right there for me to see. I killed it, but then, one day, I realized I didn't kill the damn thing I turned it off. All hail the 1's and 0's!

 

[kelly]

Reading aiotron's posts is about like listening to Rush Limbaugh. At first, you're fully aware that you're listning to him and that he's going to say something stupid so you just listen for amusement. Then a couple of things add up and you realize he's said something that makes sense. But then you get upset at yourself for just having agreed with Rush Limbaugh! But, never fear, within moments, he says something else stupid to bring you back to the reality of the situation.

 

[ai0tron]

Quote:

Originally posted by grinch i think our society is totally screwed and a ****load of dusty roman souls are laughing at us and our futures. but at least when the nuclear explosion comes to spread my electrons acrossed the eastern seaboard, there will be no dumb redneck saying "meow, meow" in the background.