[Vamp898]

Would you buy a painting based on the material of the canvas, the paint and the brushes used? Do you even care what materials the artists use? Normally you buy a painting based on the final result and not by the materials used in the process.

Strange comparison, but that is how, at least my feeling, most people in this forum buy their gear.

It seems to me that more and more people do not care if a guitar sound as close to the real life as possible, more and more people seem to only care about measurements and graphs from computers on paper because, when a computer says it sounds better, it does have to, or not?

And thats the thing. The computer can say if one canvas is better than the other, if one paint is better than the other, but a computer can not judge if the art looks better. Also a computer can not judge, if listening to a recording of a solo guitar sounds like the guitar in real life.

I play instruments and i talk to lots of musicians and also record, mix and master music and i have the feeling that musicians buy different gear than most audiophiles because they don't care about measurements on paper but on the capability of reproducing an real life sound. Because they know how music sounds life.

Some headphones (just one example: MDR-Z1R) received some very bad critique for their weird tuning. But i don't understand that critique because the MDR-Z1R makes instruments sound almost exactly like they sound in real life. Just an example, the MDR-Z1R is not the only headphone and/or in-ear that can do that.

But is that not what you want? Do you not want that the guitar sounds as close to the real sound as possible? I don’t understand the majority of the people here. Why are there people who actually prefer the limited and stripped down monitoring version of the guitar? Do you dislike the sound of instruments?

Quite a few people complain that its too bassy and not neutral enough, but guitars, double bass, pianos and so on don't produce an flat, neutral and analytic sound. They are all made of wood and mostly sound warm and bassy. That is how instruments sound.

Why do people listen to a guitar and then complain, that their headphone makes the guitar sound life and real. If you don’t like the sound of guitars, why listen to them?

But i haven't heard a single piece of Chi-Fi that was able to make instruments sound real and I think that is not an coincidence because people like Chi-Fi because its cheap and Chi-Fi sounds flat/neutral/analytic (mostly) because its easy and cheap to tune an IEM like that. You just need a measurement rig and off-the-shelve components and there goes your 600$ flagship Chi-Fi IEM.

Because I am also a very technical person (which is why I work in IT) I also sometimes fell for this and buy after looking at a graph or due to technical specs of a product. And I always fall on my nose doing so.

 

[lpd2]

Decent post. Theres some good chifi though. I always like my fiio products. Have you heard Sony Z7M2?

 

[DenverW]

Yeah, I have to disagree with a lot of this. First, there are some fantastic "chi-fi" items that sound just as good if not better than many other products. Moondrop and Thieaudio are two great examples. You completely generalize the entire market, and generalize the people who purchase it, saying they like it because it's 'cheap.'

A headphone with weird tuning generally isn't going to sound like real life...because of the weird tuning. That's why the tuning is 'weird.' I generally liked the Z1R but found it much less realistic than many other headphones such as the ZMF Auteur. If a headphone sounds good to you then that is wonderful, even though it may not sound good to others. Sure, some people may base an opinion off a graph, but I like to think that most people hear judge with their ears.

 

[lpd2]

Yep headphones using my ears, components looking at specs - plenty of chi-fi leading the pack with components especially. This is reminding me to order smsl dac su9n or mqa version maybe, checking for hifiman 6se v2 holiday discounts etc as I believe I might have the juice for those.

 

[Vamp898]

Yeah, I have to disagree with a lot of this. First, there are some fantastic "chi-fi" items that sound just as good if not better than many other products. Moondrop and Thieaudio are two great examples. You completely generalize the entire market, and generalize the people who purchase it, saying they like it because it's 'cheap.'

A headphone with weird tuning generally isn't going to sound like real life...because of the weird tuning. That's why the tuning is 'weird.' I generally liked the Z1R but found it much less realistic than many other headphones such as the ZMF Auteur. If a headphone sounds good to you then that is wonderful, even though it may not sound good to others. Sure, some people may base an opinion off a graph, but I like to think that most people hear judge with their ears.

Huh? Moondrop and Thieaudio are prime samples of how unrealistic and plastic IEMs can sound.

I think the worst IEM (above 50$) i ever heard in my life was the Dusk, followed by the Monarch Mk2.

If you really hate how instruments sound in real life, you can like these. But if you know how instruments sound when they are played in front of you, if you ever visited at least one concert in person, you can't really say that these sound anywhere close to realistic.

They have an out of any realism plastic and harsh sound that is totally focused on delivering details. They rip apart soundstages like hell. Clapping and screaming of the same person are in different layers because "Lets boost that treble, it makes details easier to hear"

To quote from another Thread here on Head-fi: "I rather listen to silence than music with the dusk".

Moondrop and Thieaudio are the best examples that show why musicians don't buy ChiFi (imho). And this is no critique, Moondrops VDSF Tuning is designed to be all about details for, let me quote, "Audiophile nerds".

Moondrop is not bad in tuning, they are tuning their IEM to this intentionally. Musicians are not their target group and i am pretty sure that non of their IEM was tuned with a human involved.

I mean in the process, of course, but at no point did a human decide "Lets make it more this or more that". Their IEM are tuned by machines and measurements and they sound like that.

The only ChiFi brand so far i personally experienced that was able to produce well tuned product was FiiO. Their FA9 does, even though its an all BA setup, an excellent job in producing an pleasant sound but Moondrop? Nope.They are the perfect example for machine tuning and harsh, all about detail and nothing else, sound signatures.

A headphone with weird tuning generally isn't going to sound like real life...because of the weird tuning. That's why the tuning is 'weird.'

People think the tuning of the MDR-Z1R is weird because it doesn't sound how they excpected it. People think "Why did they tune it this way?" because most Headphone and IEM are tuned different.

There is no real meaning behind "weird tuning" because everyone expects something different. Thats my whole point.

Musicians expect Instruments to sound like they do in real life and that is what the MDR-Z1R does. A lot of people who owned the HD800S or the Focal before think the MDR-Z1R is weird.

If a headphone sounds good to you then that is wonderful, even though it may not sound good to others.

That is something purely subjective. But an realistic presentation of an instrument is (to a certain degree) an objective measure. I could play the guitar in front of you, play an recording and ask "Does it sound the same".

I can understand why some people like a sound that doesn't sound like the instrument in real world but more like the feedback you get from Monitors. But generally, musicians want to hear their music (and music of others) the way the artist intended it and not a monitor feedback sound. That is what they have on stage to do their job.

The guy who designed the IER-M9 and the IER-Z1R from Sony once said in an interview that when he first heard that Audiophiles use actual stage monitors to listen to music, he was surprised why people do these and came to the conclusion, it must be due to the fact that musicians on the stages are pros and so they should know best what sounds best.

But i never met any professional musician who is using his monitors in his free time to listen to music. I think that is something "audiophiles" do. It is changing a bit, the IER-M9 for example was designed to be used for both Monitoring and Music with a fun sound in mind. But the IER-M9 is pretty much unique in this aspect and considered boring by a lot of audiophiles because it doesn't have this sharp highs that cut your eardrums in pieces.

 

[DenverW]

Its subjective for sure. You seem to really like Sony, who I also like quite a bit. I sure quite a few people would disagree with your takes, such as the dusk being the worst over $50.

 

[Vamp898]

Its subjective for sure. You seem to really like Sony, who I also like quite a bit. I sure quite a few people would disagree with your takes, such as the dusk being the worst over $50.

What i've personally heard so far. I am sure that there is worse and i am sure that someone else does have a completely different opinion on this.

I actually don't like Sony as much as people might think^^ it depends on who you ask. Its more a hate love. I would have replaced my Sony Gear if i would have found something that was able to replace it.

I like the sound their gear produces, but the company that is behind those products... that's another story.

Sony is a very greedy company imho.

I can understand that they sometimes have higher prices because they make things different than pretty much anyone else on the market and develop a lot themself. But this is just the half truth. Even if you count that all in, their prices are far from realistic and i would never buy any of their products for the MSRP.

I think on average i payed 50% of the MSRP for my gear and i still consider those prices high. If the price is still high after 50%, then you know, you overcharge a lot.

The MDR-Z7 was Made in Japan and cheaper than the Made in Malaysia MDR-Z7M2 (even though the development and production of the second version was way cheaper). The ZX300 to ZX507 upgrade also upgraded in price from 699€ to 829€. Thats insane, especially when you count in the EU volume cap, the lack of USB DAC or Bluetooth Receiver and so on.

The IER-M9 comes with 13 different Tips and not a single one fits me well enough that its usable. I have to buy 3rd party memory foam (and this is the only In-Ear in my life with that issue)

And don't get me started on the DMP-Z1.

Also Sony is not loyal to its customers, its one of those "We really only care about your money and nothing else" companies. They are not transparent at all and even though they want to take money from foreigners, they don't care about them. Sony Japan and Sony in the rest of the world are two different things.

I would so like to recommend Sony but at the same time, i have a bad feeling recommending anything from Sony.

If you accept and don't care to buy gear from a company that pretty much openly says "We rip you off and don't care about you, after we got your money, especially if you don't live in Japan", then okay.

I actually feel sorry for the person who payed the full 3300€ for the WM1Z which i bought used for 1700€ (the highest price i'd personally ever pay for that device). If FiiO would release an M11 Plus X with the same sound signature, i'd put my WM1Z on ebay instantly.

So i don't know if i would recommend Sony to anyone, but still after trying multiple times, i wasn't able to replace any of their Audio gear.

 

[Spareribs]

Chi Fi can be very good.

My Chi Fi bedroom tube amp is actually pretty good. And I’ve had it for more than 10 years. Another good thing about my bedroom Chi fi tube amp is that it is actually hand wired. No circuit boards. For tube amp aficionados, that is an indication of better quantity.

I agree that Chi Fi can be bad and some stuff I’ve had were crappy. But for the most part, I’ve been happy

 

[Redcarmoose]

I think it doesn’t matter where it comes from. Stuff can come from China, Thailand, Japan, France or the US. I play the guitar as my main instrument, but have also played some piano as well as synths. I do like the Sony house sound, still there is a bunch of gear from China that I love. The fact is there are actually numerous sound signatures that are interesting to me.

Why? There is no way at this point for folks to even try and get correct playback. Meaning the original recording was lost. There is no standardized recording playback in studios. They may have one set of speakers in California to hear the mix, and another in Colorado. That means for us it’s way more open to interpret sounds. Really many of the limitations we impose on ourself.

There is no such thing as a real guitar sound.....only interpreted variations of it. They are recorded all kinds of ways, and played back all kinds of ways. The original does not exist. We trick ourselves into believing the sound is only one way.

Meaning it’s mental if we relate to the recording as natural or not. The real win-win is when we can listen to all styles of playback and accept it as good (within our personal sound signature). Really even better actually than good, to hear playback and truly love it, no matter if it’s from China, Japan or wherever.

Look at all the places pianos originate from? The limitations are self-inflicted!

 

[Redcarmoose]

Look where the IER-M9 and IER-M7 are made.....Thailand. All the cables for the entire IER series are made in China. The IER-M7, the IER-M9, the IER-Z1R cables made in China.

Look where the XBA-N3 are made......Thailand, the WM1Z and WM1A are made at the Sony factory in Thailand. The Z7 MK2 is made in Thailand. There are also a lot of brands where it is unknown where they are made. Meaning like many of the Sennheiser models are made in Ireland not Germany. The AKG k701 moved production from Austria to China, and the sound identical. The Noble Audio IEMs are finished in the USA, but often it is not stated where they are 100% made.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Would you buy a painting based on the material of the canvas, the paint and the brushes used? Do you even care what materials the artists use? Normally you buy a painting based on the final result and not by the materials used in the process.

Strange comparison, but that is how, at least my feeling, most people in this forum buy their gear.

I don't think so. I think the audio scientologists do, and although they're a shouty, vocal minority, they're still a minority.

I play instruments and i talk to lots of musicians and also record, mix and master music and i have the feeling that musicians buy different gear than most audiophiles because they don't care about measurements on paper but on the capability of reproducing an real life sound. Because they know how music sounds life.

This is significant. I'm an ex-musician and I know what live music sounds like. I guess many/most people don't. That is not to say most of the guys here don't, I believe they do, we're all interested in music. To me, the goal of the audiophile is to recreate the sound of the actual performance. Sometimes that means what your system shows you doesn't sound as "pleasant" as you would like. But if it brings back the real sound of the performance, that's what we wanted.

But i haven't heard a single piece of Chi-Fi that was able to make instruments sound real

I don't know what you have heard but if you're talking about the stuff hyped on the scientology site then sure. But China is a big country with a lot of guys and they make some rockin' gear. I have an R2R DAC from Audio-gd and it is the most musical piece of gear that I own. And I'll bet money the service and support I get from the guy running the company who made it is as good as it gets.

Because I am also a very technical person (which is why I work in IT) I also sometimes fell for this and buy after looking at a graph or due to technical specs of a product. And I always fall on my nose doing so.

Good that you recognize it. Most people don't.

 

[Redcarmoose]

We never think of Nobel Audio as Malaysia/Chinese Made! Also there are lots more US brands that are made in China.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Pretty sure the MDR-Z1R cables and MDR-Z7 cables are made in China?

 

[Redcarmoose]

Campfire Audio is another one. Parts are made in Taiwan, yet assembled in the US.

CAMPFIRE AUDIO LYRA II IEM​

 

[SilverEars]

I haven't heard a well tuned Japanese iem/headphone. However, Chifi has lots of different offerings that some are good tuning and gives much much much better values than Japanese products.

Z1R is just a good example of Sony has no idea how to tune. And they overcharge your for avg sound.

I really don't own Japanese iem/headphone/amps, etc.. because there is no reference Japanese sound. I do have several Chinese products including Hifiman, Moondrop, etc.. ect.. and I only use SEnnheiser headphones. Never their iems.

Japanese headphones audio is like their movies. They kinda suck. I wish there was a Japanese Elden Ring of audio products. You know, some people that can design audio like FromSoftware can for video games?