[mulder01]

Ok, so I'm aware of all the standard advice on what I should buy in the head fi market - get yourself a pair of HD800s or LCD3s or something.  Maybe an Abyss or 009 budget permitting etc etc.  
 
But I've noticed that the science forum is full of stuff that I shouldn't buy, and what is a con or just marketing etc. Don't buy expensive cables, don't bother with balanced, forget about tubes, the list goes on.  So I was just wondering, what SHOULD I get??
 
If there's no difference between, say, a well designed $300 dac and a $5000 one, and no reason to go balanced, what could I buy that will sound just as good as Joe Blow's system that has all the bells and whistles but cost $35k?  Should I be steering clear of electrostats for example or should I ONLY be looking at electrostats...I don't know.  Assume I can afford anything on the market but don't want to be wasteful.  
 
So as far as a purely scientifically focused mind is concerned, what is the best objective system I can buy for my dollar?

 

[Lethe]

I think for headphones you just have to go to a hifi store or a meet (if you don't have an aversion to those things like some people do), and try them on for yourself to see if you could tell the difference between a $300 pair of headphones vs. a $1200 monster, and also if you have the support gear or the budget to get the support gear to play nice with whatever headphones you like (eg. electrostatic headphones require electrostatic amps or converters to drive them properly, and a decent option can get quite expensive). 
 
I got really annoyed reading a ton of polarized reviews and opinions and supposedly scientifically backed opinions with impressive charts and graphs throwing numbers at me and everything in between during my search for a pair of headphones. It's not really very helpful, they are just there to show me what headphones are out there right now that's within my budget and has the supposed sound signature that I would prefer and the other options out there that are similar and how they compare on paper. Also, there are some things that only owners of those headphones notice after living with the gear for a significant amount of time that are helpful in refining your search, say possible physical defects or weak spots that will manifest after certain amount of head time, or peculiarities and artifacts in the sonic performance. 
 
Just try out whichever headphones you can find in a store that you're interested in (reviews and stuff generates such interests), and find out which sounds the best to your ears and if there is a more expensive alternative that sounds x times better for y times the price, you'll have to figure out if it's worth it for you, law of diminishing returns applies here. You could be chasing your own tail for weeks and months reading reviews and objective readings and graphs and debates on what's what, and it'll get you nowhere. It happened to me, and I just gave up and auditioned headphones until I found one that I liked the best within my budget.
 
Remember that your ears matter WAY more than everything else *budget permitting of course.

 

[RRod]

Headphones and speakers both have issues that make it hard to get "ideal" sound from them. Speakers can be made to have a measurably flat response across most of their range, but the second you put them into a room all hell can break loose with the actual response at a given sitting position. Headphones have a different problem: the positioning so close to the ear means a flat response would sound unnatural, so compensations have to be made. They also bypass the natural effects of our ear lobes and head/body on how we perceive sound. This means that, indeed, how good a headphone sounds to you can be quite a subjective thing, regardless of the specs. So the best way to spend money is on good speakers+room treatment or headphones that are to your liking.
 
DACs and amps are an entirely different matter. They have no issues of room or physiological interaction. They can basically be compared entirely in terms of specifications, as long as those are detailed enough. And any DAC or amp that has specs bad enough to be non-audibly-transparent isn't worth the money. My HD800s sound just as fine to me on my ~$150 DAC/amp combo as they did on a ~$1500 DAC/amp combo; that's because both DAC/amp sets had good specs and enough power for the headphones. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that.

 

[limpidglitch]

Headphones are also difficult to assess objectively. If you have two headphones, where one's made of leather, polished wood and aluminium, and the other one is all utilitarian black ABS, it would be practically impossible to do an unbiased evaluation.
I guess you can use something like the measurements on InnerFidelity to weed out some obvious offenders, but in the end it's your head, ears and wallet that have to make the final decision.

 

[superjawes]

I don't think the objectivist crowd is out to provide purely objective recommendations or entirely dismiss everything listed (balanced amps can sound good, tubes can sound good, etc.). I think the main goal is to throw out all the junk science that exists for the sole purpose of milking more money out of the customer without delivering any more value.

What SHOULD you do? You should get a good sounding headphone with good value, and support said headphone with equipment as needed (using the same good sound + good value approach). Some headphones are going to sound better for certain genres of music, and your personal tastes might be different than the popular opinions. At the end of the day, you just want to be happy, and the recommendations should help you arrive at that point.

 

[Steve Eddy]

So as far as a purely scientifically focused mind is concerned, what is the best objective system I can buy for my dollar?

Before you go posting threads with a subject of "What does science think I should buy in the head fi market?" and asking questions like the one above, I suggest that you take some time and educate yourself about what science actually is. Because it is apparent that you really don't have much of an understanding of it and you're just making a mockery of it, in much the same vein as your "impressionable idiots" comment.

se

 

[Greenears]

  Ok, so I'm aware of all the standard advice on what I should buy in the head fi market - get yourself a pair of HD800s or LCD3s or something.  Maybe an Abyss or 009 budget permitting etc etc.  
 
But I've noticed that the science forum is full of stuff that I shouldn't buy, and what is a con or just marketing etc. Don't buy expensive cables, don't bother with balanced, forget about tubes, the list goes on.  So I was just wondering, what SHOULD I get??
 
If there's no difference between, say, a well designed $300 dac and a $5000 one, and no reason to go balanced, what could I buy that will sound just as good as Joe Blow's system that has all the bells and whistles but cost $35k?  Should I be steering clear of electrostats for example or should I ONLY be looking at electrostats...I don't know.  Assume I can afford anything on the market but don't want to be wasteful.  
 
So as far as a purely scientifically focused mind is concerned, what is the best objective system I can buy for my dollar?

 
There is no objective system because headphones are very subjective.  I find them even more subjective than speakers, which are pretty subjective to start with. 
 
One thread you can find on head-fi is about measured "neutral" sounding phones.  The idea is to use some kind of curve (several are proposed) and measure to that.  Then you use equalization to make it sound good, because too flat/neutral generally doesn't sound great.  But there is no generally accepted answer - all the proponents of this seem to agree this idea is in its infancy.
 
FWIW I'm looking at several Beyerdynamic closed options in the $200-300 range to drive directly from smartphone and high end laptop.  They sound good and reasonably neautral/balanced to me, to the extent that closed phones can.  But I haven't bought it yet.  I've heard many others all over the map including $1800 Audeze.  Some are ruled out for weight or comfort, it's not all just sound quality.

 

[Music Alchemist]

Being a systematic process, science doesn't think anything per se.
 
Though you were correct in your past statement that measurements are only part of the story and can't always tell you how much you will like a headphone, and also that headphones with inferior measurements can be more enjoyable, the measurements nevertheless correspond to the sound. If you want to approach the subject in an objective manner, it is imperative that you take them into consideration.
 
Generally, in the context of objective sound quality, you want a frequency response as close to neutral as possible. HRTF curves complicate this matter. (A subject well worth looking into.) Some headphones claimed to be neutral are anything but. Further, two headphones can be equally neutral but sound different due to other factors.
 
Here are some resources with headphone measurements:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/headphone-data-sheet-downloads
http://en.goldenears.net/GR_Headphones
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1wi8M-HSeK0JF33P-5ypydQjQ4OshRQhvWM0IX2h0NQ8/edit?pli=1#slide=id.p
http://www.head-fi.org/t/492673/complete-list-headphone-measurement-websites
 
You can listen to recordings of headphones here:
http://www.sonicsense.com/resourcecenter/browse/headphones.html
 
Each headphone type (dynamic, planar magnetic, electrostatic, electret, piezoelectric, magnetostriction, etc.) excels at certain things, though there are exceptions to the norm. No transducer is perfectly accurate, and you may find that a certain headphone realistically reproduces certain aspects of sound but fares poorly with others. With non-acoustic music, it's harder to play it by ear, since you can't compare to how the instruments sound in real life.
 
While electrostatic headphone systems have clear advantages over other types, there are plenty of downsides as well. For one, they require vastly higher voltage, delivered by a dedicated electrostatic headphone amplifier or an electrostatic converter connected to a speaker amp. A poorly-driven electrostat won't sound anywhere near as good as a dynamic or planar magnetic one.
 
You can learn more about how electrostatic headphones work here:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/stax/electrostatic.htm
 
In the end, it does come down to personal preference, but you can at least narrow down the selection in your quest for objective sound quality with the help of measurements.

 

[mulder01]

Ok 

Before you go posting threads with a subject of "What does science think I should buy in the head fi market?" and asking questions like the one above, I suggest that you take some time and educate yourself about what science actually is. Because it is apparent that you really don't have much of an understanding of it and you're just making a mockery of it, in much the same vein as your "impressionable idiots" comment.

se

I like how you just pick out wording you don't like as a way to sidestep the question.  Fair enough you don't like the way I asked the question but that's not an excuse to dismiss it.  You know exactly what I mean.  Assume a friend of yours goes into a headphone shop and the salesman tells them to buy a $2000 tube amp and $500 power cable for their $500 headphone, you say, no don't get that, just get XXXXX instead.  What DO YOU recommend to them based on objective facts?
 
Ok, so, probably headphones wasn't the best example, because as everyone has kindly pointed out, the sound signature is very much down to personal taste.  Let me say it another way - I've read a heap of people in the other part of the forum who say that the source / dac is the most important part of your system.  So assume I've bought an LCD3 because I like it the best from my audition. Fine.  Now to get the best possible sound out of them, let's say I've been told I should get an AK240 so I can play the most hi res files, then I'm going to need a good quality digital cable (probably looking at a good $500+ to get a decent high quality audio grade digital cable) then I'm going to need a good DSD dac because DSD is the only way to go so I'll probably need to spend about $5k on that. Then I'll need to get some really nice balanced cables because of course balanced sounds way better - I'm thinking maybe $1500 odd for nice musical interconnects there.  Then probably a nice tube amp because so many people agree that they're the only way to go, something like a WA5 so I can make use of the balanced signal all the way through.  Then it would be a shame to have all that nice gear and use the stock headphone cable, so if I can afford it I'm probably willing to spend about a thousand on an after market headphone cable...
 
Ok so as we all know this sort of thing is extremely common practice and pretty standard advice if you ask in any other part of the forum, but if I posted that in the science section and said 'what do you guys think?" I would get page after page of objections saying that every one of those things is wrong and I'd be wasting $15k.  Ok fine, I'm open to suggestions.  Should I use my DVD player I have at home as a CD transport with a $20 coax cable going from the spdif out to an odac?  Then since tubes don't give as good a performance as solid state, could I spend $500 on a solid state single ended amp that puts out just as higher quality signal as a balanced tube amp many times it's price?  Everyone is quick to tell you what you DON'T NEED and why, but what is GOOD?  Specifically what products should I get?  At what point with amps / dacs/ cables am I wasting my money because as far as measurements go, there IS NO difference?

 

[Music Alchemist]

If this is just about making your current headphones sound better, I recommend contacting JPS Labs about how much amplifier output power your Abyss needs to reach its peak. (Joe told me before, but I forgot.)

 

[luberconn]

if there was a right answer, we'd all have the same gear within our budgets. 

 

[Steve Eddy]

Ok 
I like how you just pick out wording you don't like as a way to sidestep the question.

I didn't answer it because it was a loaded question.

Assume a friend of yours goes into a headphone shop and the salesman tells them to buy a $2000 tube amp and $500 power cable for their $500 headphone, you say, no don't get that, just get XXXXX instead.  What DO YOU recommend to them based on objective facts?

I wouldn't necessarily give any recommendation based on objective facts (and this is what loads your question). I've no idea what my friend's criteria might be, nor would I assume that their criteria is objective facts. If it is, I would be happy to help them understand and tell them what would be better from a purely objective standpoint, but at the end of the day, my only recommendation would be that they go with whatever gave them the most subjective satisfaction, because I believe that that is the only thing that's at all meaningful to us human beings when it comes to enjoying reproduced music.

The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed. —Robert Pirsig, Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance

That is my philosophy.

se

 

[Steve Eddy]

if there was a right answer, we'd all have the same gear within our budgets. 

Right. It was a loaded question.

se

 

[mulder01]

  If this is just about making your current headphones sound better, I recommend contacting JPS Labs about how much amplifier output power your Abyss needs to reach its peak. (Joe told me before, but I forgot.)

 
It's not what this is about.  I just see in this forum that there tons of products that are - according to science - a waste of time.  Ok fine, name me one product that isn't a waste of time - that's all I'm asking.  If I bought a regular from the sound science forum with me to a headphone store, what would he tell me to buy.  It's not a trick question.
 
 

at the end of the day, my only recommendation would be that they go with whatever gave them the most subjective satisfaction, because I believe that that is the only thing that's at all meaningful to us human beings when it comes to enjoying reproduced music.

The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed. —Robert Pirsig, Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance

That is my philosophy.

se

 
I disagree that it's a loaded question.  I know that technically speaking there are many products that achieve no measurable benefit and everyone is happy to point those out.  I'm just asking recommend SOMETHING that performs at the peak of what we are able to hear, without being a gimmick that wastes my money.  I legitimately want to know.
 
But what you've just said nullifies every reason to even think about the science behind behind this stuff and makes all measurements completely void of any purpose when purchasing gear.  If the only reason to buy something is because it gives me the most subjective enjoyment, then all measurements associated with that product are irrelevant, because I liked it the best.  And I know that's not what you think because if someone came along and said I just bought a $1000 interconnect and it makes my system sound so much better and I think everyone should buy one because my system has completely opened up and I can't believe my ears, you would tear shreds off them, not say "well if it makes you happy then yes I can recommend buying that cable"

 

[RRod]

   
It's not what this is about.  I just see in this forum that there tons of products that are - according to science - a waste of time.  Ok fine, name me one product that isn't a waste of time - that's all I'm asking.  If I bought a regular from the sound science forum with me to a headphone store, what would he tell me to buy.  It's not a trick question.

 
A good set of cans, a good laptop, good recordings, and possibly an amp depending on the cans.