[madwolfa]

  We all hear differently, some of us have had ear training in one way or another. Earlier in my life I sold audio gear for a living, and learned to listen well and make discernments with a lot of different gear and cables at my disposal. 

 
Why not put on some rocks while we're at it...

 

[US Blues]

 

 
We all hear differently, some of us have had ear training in one way or another. Earlier in my life I sold audio gear for a living, and learned to listen well and make discernments with a lot of different gear and cables at my disposal. 

And your conclusion was???

What I learned was to hear were the differences between different pieces of gear. For example- one day a new Goldmund power amp came in, so the manager hooked it up in a nice system driving Magneplanar speakers. These were big ones, not an easy load for an amplifier. We sat and compared the Goldmund to another amp, and my manager asked me to articulate the differences in what I was hearing. Ear training. Even when a customer was comparing one set of speakers to another, I would note things I was hearing, and then listening to their explanation of what they heard gave me new insights and perspectives. 
 
The conclusion was different gear sounds different, and then the fun is picking out what one likes, and also what has good synergy. When I sold gear (in the 80's) we had a pair of Klipsch corner horns, and they sounded amazing when driven by a 50 watt per side Levinson power amp- the combo was awesome for those speakers in that room. "Better" amps did not match those speakers as well. 
 
Jason and Mike can hear all kinds of stuff most folks cannot, but that is what allows them to make the Good Schiit. Their design and engineering work is backed by the listening test, I'd love to sit with them and have them teach me about what they are hearing!

 

[landroni]

 

  A big part of the difference could lie in how we perceive.   A quote:  "intuition can beat analysis, because your unconscious mind excels at pattern recognition.  If you stop and take the time to think, it is easy to lose the forest in the trees."  Grant, Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World  (Chpt. 2).   I wonder how much ABXing evescerates by over analysis that unconscious pattern recognition experienced persons have.

 
Anybody interested in perception vs measurement issues ... which includes a lot of Head-Fi-ers obviously .. really ought to own and study "Thinking Fast and Slow" by Daniel Kahneman.

 
The human brain does excel at pattern recognition. The fast-firing subconscious brain is fast because it maps a few points of similarity in the current situation to its store of experiences, and basically extrapolates the rest of the detail from the past over the present. This is an evolutionarily excellent response for dealing with (for example) possible lions lurking in the tall grass. But it also has a high (and often invisible) level of error compared to rational analysis. Kahneman explains it far better than I can, and with proof by experiments to support every bit of it.

 
If you only read one book every five years, this should be your next read. It's that good, that informative. It will change how you think about your thinking, give you an increased understanding of the baked-in perceptual biases that we all have due to how our brains work, and how much (and when) you trust your instincts.

Subconscious rules of thumb is a very real, evolutionary phenomenon. For instance, racism --- or just about any type of discriminatory tendencies against any particular segment of population --- can be partly explained by this: fast'n'loose rule of thumbs that gives one an immediate appraisal of a given person. Same holds for lions lurking in the tall grass (RUN and HIDE!) or spiders (DO NOT TOUCH!) or height (DON'T MOVE FORWARD and GRAB SOMETHING!). From an evolutionary standpoint, survived those lineages whose brains could develop and use efficiently such fast'n'loose survival skills. Immediate prejudices against specific groups of people (i.e. tribalism) is partly a by-product of such evolutionary mechanisms (and none are spared: men, women, red-haired or blond, straight, gay, pop stars, politicians, etc., etc.).
 
However, one should always keep in mind that people can work around such cognitive mechanisms, including assorted cognitive biases. And many do. After all, not ALL are racists, some people pat scary huge felines, others keep tarantulas as pets and many more willingly jump from airplanes (with a parachute of course). Sometimes years and decades are needed to overcome deeply ingrained mechanisms learned from very early age. But it can be done. What's more, not always such mechanisms yield wrong results: after all, when you sense something extremely hot you will very rightly retrieve your arm ASAP. No questions asked.
 
So psychoacoustics and similar cognitive approaches can only go so far to explain what we can hear. Subconscious pattern recognition may yield misleading results in some instances, but may yield useful patterns in others. I reckon it's very hard to come up with useful experimental settings that can accurately eke out such pattern recognition capabilities in humans. (I haven't yet seen any references of experiments that control for such obvious factors as long-term listening effects...)
That cognitive biases and associated mechanisms explain ALL of what we can hear is a terribly doubtful and unconvincing proposition... That traditional DBT doesn't detect a signal is likely just as indicative of science not having yet caught up with the capabilities and deeply ingrained mechanisms of the human brain. It wouldn't be the first time.

 

[7ryder]

Hey guys,
 
While people are free to discuss whatever they like on a forum, this - "can X make a difference in sound" question - with answers like "no it can't", "yes it can" never proves anything.
 
Even with long anecdotal or fact-based (according to the person making the point) arguments that support the writer's particular point of view, it always come down to the same thing - hardly anyone on either side of the argument changes their mind and it takes up a lot of bandwidth. 
 
For those that want to get into this in more detail, there are plenty of threads on the Sound Science forum where these types of conversations are welcomed and even encouraged so...
 
Can we make a gentleman's agreement that we won't derail this thread with this never ending argument? 

 
TIA.

 

[Ableza]

I have the solution to this endless and pointless debate:  Don't care!  Use whatever you like!  Ignore those who think they "KNOW"!  Free your mind and your ass will follow!

 

[taxiq]

  an we make a gentleman's agreement that we won't derail this thread with this never ending argument? 

 
TIA.

 
Excellent idea 7ryder.   I and mine will certainly agree to ignore all posts which we do not support, of course you and yours will likewise agree to ignore all posts you do not support.
 
Problem solved.   NO argument.   

 

[aamefford]

  I have the solution to this endless and pointless debate:  Don't care!  Use whatever you like!  Ignore those who think they "KNOW"!  Free your mind and your ass will follow!

Will this actually work if my head is up my.........

 

[wink]

Quote:Ableza

 I have the solution to this endless and pointless debate:  Don't care!  Use whatever you like!  Ignore those who think they "KNOW"!  Free your mind and your ass will follow!

 
Quote:aamefford

Will this actually work if my head is up my.........

 
The question her is how long is your piece of string compared to some other poster/s piece of string.
And, does the diameter of the string relate to heightened listening pleasure...?
 
Objective, subjective and hybrid evaluations are sought for and encouraged.  

 

[Baldr]

 
While people are free to discuss whatever they like on a forum, this - "can X make a difference in sound" question - with answers like "no it can't", "yes it can" never proves anything.
 
Even with long anecdotal or fact-based (according to the person making the point) arguments that support the writer's particular point of view, it always come down to the same thing - hardly anyone on either side of the argument changes their mind and it takes up a lot of bandwidth. 
 
For those that want to get into this in more detail, there are plenty of threads on the Sound Science forum where these types of conversations are welcomed and even encouraged so...
 

I am totally aligned with 7ryder on verbose "Does not"-"Does too", post - counterpost diatribes.  When incorporated within a Sound Science environment, debate is constrained as all participants must claim science endorses their view.  This implies a winner/loser.  This forum is not a zero sum right/wrong forum.  This is a discussion forum.  This makes it possible for all interested to participate and enjoy.  Along the way, I have benefited greatly by listening to others.  I have no intention to stop now.

 

[Argo Duck]

Yes zero-sum correctly describes the sound 'science' forum IME.

Interestingly, it does not describe any research or academic team or environment in which I have worked to date.

Nevertheless, I take 7ryder's point and will be sure to keep both anecdote and 'fact' out of future postings. This is, after all, head-fi

 

[gwitzel]

  I perhaps need to reiterate that I have only tried a dozen or so available server options. My choice of the Mac Mini late 2009 was in part determined by the fact that I felt that was the minimum speed required for the specified operation.
 
I also failed to mention that I store all of my music at full PCM (Redbook for the overwhelming majority). I do not use FLAC or any other compression/decompression schemes. It seek (although it is not my purpose here to make any tech arguments) to have my server running the fewest possible number of processes possible for best potential sound. At full Redbook PCM bitwidth, I can fit 1600 more or less complete CD size albums on an under $300 1TB SSD. This is less than eighteen US cents per album. The FLAC compression may well be lossless, but for the savings are trivial for my peace of mind.
 
Please understand that the described server is only intended to be offered as a low-cost, functional, very good sounding and very well behaved server. It is in particular suitable to be a cheap replacement for buggy Windows based machines. I do not know it to be the best server there is. I am not in and do not plan to be in that biz
 
As a bonus, if you are not farting around with compression/decompression on the fly (Why??) I attest it to be better performing and sounding than many later, far more expensive Macs.
 
As a final comment on Windows – I do not hate it – I use it daily for R&D schematic capture and circuit board layout. It is very well suited for that. I just do not use it for email or web browsing. It is never connected to the internet. Over the years, I've had my emails spoofed and been virused more than once. It's lack of security compared to Linux and Mac is such that I needed about ten rubbers (in case 9 of them break) over any physical connection to the internet.  

 
Thank you, Baldr, for pointing out this music sever solution.
 
I am really surprised, almost shocked, how good this solution sounds. Following your advice, I have bought a Mac Mini MC239xxA and added 8 Gb RAM and a 250Gb SSD. I installed El Capitan, and I use Audirvana, streaming flac form a 2 Tb firewire external HD.
 
Before I used my late 2011 13'' MacBook Pro, which I upgraded to 16 Gb RAM and a 128 Gb SSD. I was a bit disappointed how my chain (Mac + Wyrd + Gungnir MB + Parasound P5 and A23 + Brocksieper Minara) sounded before: somehow compressed in the heights, somehow the sound was 'small' and did not quite carry through the room. Not a huge problem, but big enough for me to sometimes stop listening or turn down the volume (forte in an orchestra, some violin etc.).
 
This is gone now.
 
I am not sure if this is because the Mac Mini is so great, or if my other Mac just had a problem (one of the USB ports does not stream music anymore, despite the Wyrd and despite recognizing the DAC; playing results in an error).
 
Now I have to experiment with AIFF vs. FLAC. Up to now I never could hear a difference between the formats, but I was also convinced I have the settings of Audirvana under control (which I had not as described in the Gumby thread), and I believed the computer couldn't make such a difference (which it totally did), etc. 
 
 
One really can do things wrong on the digital side.

 

[Baldr]

   
Thank you, Baldr, for pointing out this music sever solution.
 
I am really surprised, almost shocked, how good this solution sounds. Following your advice, I have bought a Mac Mini MC239xxA and added 8 Gb RAM and a 250Gb SSD. I installed El Capitan, and I use Audirvana, streaming flac form a 2 Tb firewire external HD.
 
Before I used my late 2011 13'' MacBook Pro, which I upgraded to 16 Gb RAM and a 128 Gb SSD. I was a bit disappointed how my chain (Mac + Wyrd + Gungnir MB + Parasound P5 and A23 + Brocksieper Minara) sounded before: somehow compressed in the heights, somehow the sound was 'small' and did not quite carry through the room. Not a huge problem, but big enough for me to sometimes stop listening or turn down the volume (forte in an orchestra, some violin etc.).
 
This is gone now.
 
I am not sure if this is because the Mac Mini is so great, or if my other Mac just had a problem (one of the USB ports does not stream music anymore, despite the Wyrd and despite recognizing the DAC; playing results in an error).
 
Now I have to experiment with AIFF vs. FLAC. Up to now I never could hear a difference between the formats, but I was also convinced I have the settings of Audirvana under control (which I had not as described in the Gumby thread), and I believed the computer couldn't make such a difference (which it totally did), etc. 
 
 
One really can do things wrong on the digital side.

Thanks for responding.  There have been questions on this thread which imply that I may be condemning all other Macs other than the above which is not true.  I have access to three newer Mac Minis, two older Mac Minis, about a half a dozen or so various flavors of MacBooks/Airs.  I prefer the model above.  YMMV.  I have not tried everything.  I am not an expert on digital audio servers. I only mention that in my inadvertent experience this is an inexpensive way to build an excellent sounding server.  It is my opinion and a narrative construct.  I have also stated that I prefer glass as opposed to plastic fibre links, others have felt differently.  
 
Let me restate that whatever anyone else's opinion is on the performance of various audio components is none of my business; also, all of you are as entitled as I am to your expression of your preferences, feelings, and opinions.  Finally, I have zero tolerance of ad hominem attacks.  Some of my most valuable friendships have been formed with those whose opinions were polar opposites of mine.

 

[Currawong]

I find that when people disagree with me, it is an opportunity to discover if there is an aspect of audio that I have overlooked or not considered enough.  One of my best friends has very divergent opinions about headphones to what I do, primarily due to his tastes in music. I find this to be a wonderful challenge to my own thoughts. 

 

[macon]

Well said.

 

[macon]

Thank you, Baldr, for pointing out this music sever solution.

I am really surprised, almost shocked, how good this solution sounds. Following your advice, I have bought a Mac Mini MC239xxA and added 8 Gb RAM and a 250Gb SSD. I installed El Capitan, and I use Audirvana, streaming flac form a 2 Tb firewire external HD.

Before I used my late 2011 13'' MacBook Pro, which I upgraded to 16 Gb RAM and a 128 Gb SSD. I was a bit disappointed how my chain (Mac + Wyrd + Gungnir MB + Parasound P5 and A23 + Brocksieper Minara) sounded before: somehow compressed in the heights, somehow the sound was 'small' and did not quite carry through the room. Not a huge problem, but big enough for me to sometimes stop listening or turn down the volume (forte in an orchestra, some violin etc.).

This is gone now.

I am not sure if this is because the Mac Mini is so great, or if my other Mac just had a problem (one of the USB ports does not stream music anymore, despite the Wyrd and despite recognizing the DAC; playing results in an error).

Now I have to experiment with AIFF vs. FLAC. Up to now I never could hear a difference between the formats, but I was also convinced I have the settings of Audirvana under control (which I had not as described in the Gumby thread), and I believed the computer couldn't make such a difference (which it totally did), etc. 


One really can do things wrong on the digital side.

Well said. I keep my .wav files on a seperate QNAP NAS. I'm gonna by stock in WD.