Upsampling discussion (technical)
Jun 20, 2002 at 2:39 AM Post #31 of 62
I'll definitely agree with you in that results trounce methodology, but there's no arguing with the mathematics. (And, as AndreYew points out, this is one case where the measurements do confirm what the theory predicts.) With their interpolation technique, there's no way the Wadia is reproducing the analog signal more faithfully than other CD players.

I'm not saying the Wadia doesn't sound better. Heck, it probably does. But that goodness isn't in the recording; it's being "invented" by the hardware.
 
Jun 20, 2002 at 2:42 AM Post #32 of 62
Kelly,

I have listened to the analog outputs of the Sony, but not as extensively as some of the other pieces.

I'm not trying to make you defensive, nor am I trying to deny what you're hearing. I'd just like to get an example of something that exhibits this fault, so we can have a common frame of reference. It sounds like Nezer has some examples, though I admit that Pearl Jam isn't something I listen to.

--Andre
 
Jun 20, 2002 at 2:42 AM Post #33 of 62
Miranda
I'm not sure I'm getting what I mean across. To me, the Wadia sounded more "natural." Whereas I can always instantaneously tell you, "Yup, that's a CD player," I couldn't with the Wadia. The Wadia sounded like a turntable without the analog pops and hisses and whatnot. I don't know how else to phrase it.

Now here's a possible explanation: I haven't heard an abundance of high end equipment. Maybe other players really can and do sound this good and it has nothing to do with the filtering at all. I've yet to hear the Linn CD12 or the expensive Mark Levinson which don't claim to use filtering. So it's possible I could have a similar experience with them and that the filtering effect is more subtle than we've speculated.
 
Jun 20, 2002 at 2:43 AM Post #34 of 62
Quote:

Originally posted by MirandaX
I'm not saying the Wadia doesn't sound better. Heck, it probably does. But that goodness isn't in the recording; it's being "invented" by the hardware.


I don't care who/what invents it, I'll take better sound any way it's dished-up and served.

All 500 Wadia owners can't be wrong. :wink:
 
Jun 20, 2002 at 2:49 AM Post #35 of 62
Quote:

Originally posted by AndreYew
Kelly,

I have listened to the analog outputs of the Sony, but not as extensively as some of the other pieces.

I'm not trying to make you defensive, nor am I trying to deny what you're hearing. I'd just like to get an example of something that exhibits this fault, so we can have a common frame of reference. It sounds like Nezer has some examples, though I admit that Pearl Jam isn't something I listen to.

--Andre


Andre
What do you listen to? It bothers me the most surrounding sibilant vocalists like Sting and Bruce Dickinson (and just about anyone female). It's more common in brighter/pop recordings. It seems to show up around anything metallic (horns, cymbals). Grab any of the old Police recordings and listen through the analog out of your S7000 with a revealing amp and headphone and it's probably going to be there (whether you notice it/are bothered by it/can identify which flaw I mean to be talking about).
 
Jun 20, 2002 at 2:55 AM Post #36 of 62
Quote:

Originally posted by kelly
I'm not sure I'm getting what I mean across. To me, the Wadia sounded more "natural." Whereas I can always instantaneously tell you, "Yup, that's a CD player," I couldn't with the Wadia. The Wadia sounded like a turntable without the analog pops and hisses and whatnot. I don't know how else to phrase it.


That's actually a good way to phrase it. The Wadia reconstruction technique is very un-CD like, and it does imply a different sound. (It might even have to be in the DAC, rather than an external processor, because their kind of distortion is a function of the input signal, which is hard to do without taking a running FFT and doing DSP on the signal, which implies another DAC step.) I'm not against this way of doing things, but advertising it as more accurate or faithful to the source would be untrue. More musical, more natural, perhaps.
 
Jun 20, 2002 at 2:58 AM Post #37 of 62
Quote:

Originally posted by MirandaX


That's actually a good way to phrase it. The Wadia reconstruction technique is very un-CD like, and it does imply a different sound. (It might even have to be in the DAC, rather than an external processor, because their kind of distortion is a function of the input signal, which is hard to do without taking a running FFT and doing DSP on the signal, which implies another DAC step.) I'm not against this way of doing things, but advertising it as more accurate or faithful to the source would be untrue. More musical, more natural, perhaps.


You say potato, I say potato. LOL.
 
Jun 20, 2002 at 3:00 AM Post #38 of 62
Anders,

"If the CD player cannot handle this problem, couldn't it instead be solved by feeding the player with clean AC? Of course I here think of power conditioner and power cable solutions that really remove the RF noise (or a substantial part of it)."

Note that what I've said is theoretical stuff backed up by anecdotal evidence --- I've not performed any good double-blind tests to show what I'm saying is true, but other industries outside of audio do have deal with such issues. With that in mind, RF noise can come from many places within a CD player, and not just the power supply. The sharp edges of the square waves inside a player have high frequencies that could, through capacitance, be injected into other components. Routing problems inside the player of signals can worsen such problems. For example, not directing return currents on the ground plane correctly so that they pass at right angles to sensitive clock signals can induce undesirable changes on the clock. Someone reported once that a Cal Audio player routed some important signal around the perimeter of a circuit board, creating basically a giant antenna so that external magnetic fields could induce currents on that signal.

There have been tests that show a (badly designed) CD player affecting itself very, very dramatically when just playing different CDs. Basically it had an inadequate power supply, and when the disc-reading servos were asked to work extra hard to read a marginal disc, it modulated its efforts into the audio section. No blind tests needed here --- it was very obvious.

RF noise can be injected into DACs through the digital interconnect as well. There could be noise riding on top of the digital signal. Many DACs don't do any common-mode rejection at their inputs --- those that do usually have a pulse transformer at their inputs. Many transport makers are obsessed with making their digital outputs as sharp and fast as possible, possibly to make up for poor timing recovery circuits found in most DACs. This can actually be bad, because high-speed signals tend to have high frequency components that are hard to manage. I have some DACs and transports that put wavey lines onto my cable TV feed. Imagine what else they're putting out.

Here's an interesting web page with technical info and measurements of some of the effects we're talking about:

Marc Heijliger's DAC project

Erland Unruh's DAC

The second one has the most exotic (and quantitatively justifiable) measures I've seen to getting good digital sound. For example, Pete Goudreau's triple-cap bypass networks have basically resistive impedance to over 40 MHz. That is really unheard of.

--Andre
 
Jun 20, 2002 at 3:10 AM Post #39 of 62
Kelly,

OK. I'm going CD-shopping soon!
smily_headphones1.gif


Edit: forgot to answer your question. I listen to classical music, and then mostly large orchestral pieces, though I do have some number of CDs with drum kit in it as well. I'll give those a whirl, and get a couple of the CDs mentioned.

--Andre
 
Jun 20, 2002 at 3:14 AM Post #40 of 62
Man, shopping specifically for flawed CDs has to be the height of obsession.
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Jun 20, 2002 at 1:19 PM Post #41 of 62
Quote:

Marc Heijliger's DAC project

Erland Unruh's DAC


Andre, do you know if these guys would build and sell these DACs if you email them?
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Jun 20, 2002 at 2:57 PM Post #42 of 62
And I still don't get what you mean by 'do what Wadia does and do something sane with the filtering'. (or sth like that) If Wadia DOESN'T do sane things with the filtering, what would you do with your DAC that Wadia does too?
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Jun 20, 2002 at 5:20 PM Post #43 of 62
Joe,

I don't think Erland or Marc will sell you a complete DAC. There are plans there for DIYers, though some of the components will be very hard to get (I know, I tried).

I think I answered the question of sane filtering a few posts up. Basically implement a good brickwall filter.

Kelly,

We put the "high" in "high-end".
smily_headphones1.gif


--Andre
 
Jun 21, 2002 at 5:56 PM Post #44 of 62
Yes, I know what Wadia does that you WOULDN'T do, but what is it that Wadia does that you WOULD do like them? You said 'do what Wadia does'.
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