[DarkAngel]

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Chuck beats Rampage in whatever fashion he needs to, he's made alot of improvement, and I haven't seen Rampage make any. I'm going to guess he KO's Rampage, and I'll go with round 2

Rampage recently beat Matt Lindland 5/06 and first UFC fight against Marvin Eastman 2/07, he also beat Arona 6/04 whose only other loss was to Fedor. If thier first fight was close then yeah maybe Liddell is good enough now to win, but he was totally man handled by Rampage, so badly his corner threw in towel to stop fight! Chuck's style does not match up well vs Rampage

Liddell should watch tapes of Wanderlei Silva who beat Rampage twice: later in same Pride event that Liddell lost to Rampage 11/03, and one year later in Pride 28 event 10/04

 

[Cousin Patty]

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Originally Posted by ooheadsoo /img/forum/go_quote.gif The kick's power was generated by a snap from Gonzaga's knee. It is NOT the kind of kick Crocop throws, which comes from rotating the hip.

Well without getting super technical, its still a high kick to the head, hitting the guy with the same part of the leg/shin/ankle...

 

[ooheadsoo]

Sorry for being technical, but a snap kick from the knee does not generate the power of a muay thai style high kick which involves rotating from the leg/hip. Of course, spinning around in the air 3 times before hitting someone would generate even more power, but...

My point was that it wasn't that impressive of a kick, being a snap kick.

 

[KinesongPayaso]

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Originally Posted by DarkAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Interesting that Couture flat out said in announce both before fight that Gonzaga would win and even Rogan said he would not be surprised at all if Gonzaga wins, Couture also said he would rather fight CroCop...... Also the larger octagon cage made it easier for Gonzaga to employ his constant circling movements, unlike smaller Pride ring with corners that Crocop is used to.

isnt it natural that they would interview people that would choose the underdog over the hyped fighter? just to even out the sides. what's unnatural is the color commentator to say it out loud like that, BUT if you're the champion to fight the victor, then I guess thats a good enough reason

filipovic was getting more than enough popularity, gabriel didn't, even though he had the skills for it. he just didnt have the opportunity to show it, as his opponents haven't been able to showcase it




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Originally Posted by Cousin Patty /img/forum/go_quote.gif What do you mean by that? I dont remember there being any knee involved. From what I saw, it was the lower shin/ankle area that hit Cro Cop on the side of the head... Edit: Looked at the replay, i still dont see what you mean... Even so... the whole reason this kick is amazing is because it's the exact same type of kick that Crop Cop is known for dishing out and knocking out guys with... it's like Gonzaga saying "HA! how do you like it when you're on the other side?". i still can't believe it...

filipovic's kick comes from the whole body. the force comes from his feet-pushing/exploding motion, up the legs-momentum, twist of hips-transfer of energy, then to the kick

gonzaga's kick didn't deliver as much power, as the kinetic energy was "bottle-necked" in his knees. im not 100% sure, as I saw the fight only twice, but gabriel's high kick reached filipovic's head, because he really leaned back, but I guess he wasn't flexible enough, so he had to bend his knees to accomodate it, which decreased the power

 

[KinesongPayaso]

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Originally Posted by EyeAmEye /img/forum/go_quote.gif Couture will have difficulty with Gonzaga, no doubt. It's a hard fight to pick, but since I haven't really seen much of Gonzaga, I'll go with who I know and say Couture gets the win.

after the speculation of the chance of couture fighting cro cop emerged, after couture beat silva, I felt that couture had a good chance against filipovic, as cro cop is seemingly one dimensional. sure he may be capable of others, but his real arsenal are his striking. he starts the fight striking strong, if he gets pressured, he will still strike. this guy seems to be only good at defending in the ground, not so much offense in the ground to speak of(unsure, as I haven't seen much pride fights

)

gonzaga, however, is much bigger than couture, and can still move quite fast. couture has troubles with much bigger guys than him(barnett, rico rodriguez) even though they aren't that skillful
gonzaga seems to be more versatile too



Quote:

Originally Posted by ooheadsoo /img/forum/go_quote.gif The kick's power was generated by a snap from Gonzaga's knee. It is NOT the kind of kick Crocop throws, which comes from rotating the hip.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooheadsoo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry for being technical, but a snap kick from the knee does not generate the power of a muay thai style high kick which involves rotating from the leg/hip. Of course, spinning around in the air 3 times before hitting someone would generate even more power, but... My point was that it wasn't that impressive of a kick, being a snap kick.

 

[Cousin Patty]

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Originally Posted by KinesongPayaso /img/forum/go_quote.gif isnt it natural that they would interview people that would choose the underdog over the hyped fighter? just to even out the sides. what's unnatural is the color commentator to say it out loud like that, BUT if you're the champion to fight the victor, then I guess thats a good enough reason filipovic was getting more than enough popularity, gabriel didn't, even though he had the skills for it. he just didnt have the opportunity to show it, as his opponents haven't been able to showcase it filipovic's kick comes from the whole body. the force comes from his feet-pushing/exploding motion, up the legs-momentum, twist of hips-transfer of energy, then to the kick gonzaga's kick didn't deliver as much power, as the kinetic energy was "bottle-necked" in his knees. im not 100% sure, as I saw the fight only twice, but gabriel's high kick reached filipovic's head, because he really leaned back, but I guess he wasn't flexible enough, so he had to bend his knees to accomodate it, which decreased the power

Im sorry. But with all due respect, I think you guys are full of crap. I just watched a cro cop highlght reel and the replay of his loss last night and its the same kick from what I can see. In his highlight reel he's in the same position while standing as gonzaga was, he leans back even MORE than Gonzaga did... I mean how many ways can you throw a high kick like that? Even Randy Couture said "Crop Cop couldnt have done it better". Referring to the kick. Until you guys can show some hard proof, I say its the same style of kick.

 

[ooheadsoo]

That's like saying all punches to the head are the same. The proof stares at you every time you watch the video - if you know what you're looking for. If you are a serious fan, please go learn some more about kicking technique.

 

[Borat]

The kicks are different, but if you're going to tell me that Gonzaga kick wasn't hard, you are crazy! I don't care if Gabriel learned how to do that by watching the Ninja Turtles, he laid CroCop out! CroCop looked dead. Watch it (animated gif). That is just as, if not more, brutal than CroCop's LHK on Vovchanchyn. How can you not be impressed by this?

Screw technique, give me results. That's like harping about Chuck's unorthodox punching technique.

 

[Cousin Patty]

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Originally Posted by Borat /img/forum/go_quote.gif The kicks are different, but if you're going to tell me that Gonzaga kick wasn't hard, you are crazy! I don't care if Gabriel learned how to do that by watching the Ninja Turtles, he laid CroCop out! CroCop looked dead. Watch it (animated gif). That is just as, if not more, brutal than CroCop's LHK on Vovchanchyn. How can you not be impressed by this? Screw technique, give me results. That's like harping about Chuck's unorthodox punching technique.

Thats why I'm so curious as to what the difference is between the two supposed types of kicks... Cro Cop didnt just get hit and go to the ground and roll around in a daze... he was knocked the ***** out... you cant get any more knocked out than that short of being unconscious or dead...

ooheadsoo: what exactly should I be looking for then? i am genuinely curious

 

[ooheadsoo]

No one said it wasn't hard. It's just not as hard as it would have been if Gonzaga had executed a muay thai kick. You don't see people getting KO by karate or other snap style kicks very often for that very reason. In fact, this is the first time I remember seeing it. Of course, it is my opinion that if the kick had been timed like a muay thai kick, Crocop wouldn't have misread the kick and dropped his hand to cover his body, and therefore would have had a higher chance of blocking the kick.

And don't tell me Chuck couldn't punch harder if he learned normal boxing

Fact is, when all is said and done, you don't need to hit someone all that hard to knock them out if the stars are properly aligned, if you know what I mean. Hard enough is often good enough.

 

[KinesongPayaso]

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Originally Posted by Cousin Patty /img/forum/go_quote.gif Im sorry. But with all due respect, I think you guys are full of crap. I just watched a cro cop highlght reel and the replay of his loss last night and its the same kick from what I can see. In his highlight reel he's in the same position while standing as gonzaga was, he leans back even MORE than Gonzaga did... I mean how many ways can you throw a high kick like that? Even Randy Couture said "Crop Cop couldnt have done it better". Referring to the kick. Until you guys can show some hard proof, I say its the same style of kick.

it's just like punching
you can punch with just your forearm(flicker action)
you can punch with your whole arm("punch")
you can punch with your whole arm and back behind it(throwing a punch, and since the back is behind it, there's a follow through, and a certain "pushing" feeling)
you can punch with your whole body's weight behind it, meaning the force comes from the ground, the explosion in your feet and legs, the hips, back, arms, fist, then to his face

try mimicking a boxer's motions
if it feels like your back, knees and/or hips are feeling some pressure, it means that the your motion isnt fluid. it means that the energy is being cramped in your back, knees and/or hips


if you can throw a punch using your whole body, and you don't feel any muscles being squeezed or pulled, then you're doing fine



the best example of this transfer of energy is the crack of a whip
unless it's fully extended, and hits the right spot at the right time, it won't release the maximum force

that's why boxers use up 1-2 rounds just to get used to the distance of their opponents. not because they dont want to miss, but because they want to hit that sweet spot. the exact distance where their whole arm is extended for maximum force

try punching someone where your elbow is bent, as opposed to hitting at your maximum distance. you will definitely feel the difference
that's why some fighters tend to close in and let the blow hit EARLIER, as opposed to dodging, because if the blow hits too early, the arm or leg is bent, meaning the energy hasn't travelled fully to the end point(fist)

 

[Borat]

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Originally Posted by ooheadsoo /img/forum/go_quote.gif No one said it wasn't hard. It's just not as hard as it would have been if Gonzaga had executed a muay thai kick. You don't see people getting KO by karate or other snap style kicks very often for that very reason. In fact, this is the first time I remember seeing it. Of course, it is my opinion that if the kick had been timed like a muay thai kick, Crocop wouldn't have misread the kick and dropped his hand to cover his body, and therefore would have had a higher chance of blocking the kick.

Shoot, maybe those Muay Thai guys need to take a page out of Gonzaga's book then.

I ain't never seen Anderson Silva, Mauricio Shogun, Wanderlei Silva, Kit Cope, or whoever knock someone out with a head kick like that before. Now to be fair, most of those guys utilize knees in the Thai clinch, but they are all MT practitioners and they haven't done what Gonzaga just did, which is head kick a K1 Grand Prix finalist out cold. Most of their victories are coming against Greco/jiu-jitsu opponents.

Even Fedor, in preparation for his fight with Cro Cop, flew to The Netherlands to train under Ernesto Hoost. He tried a high kick against Cro Cop and didn't get the results that Gonzaga got. Nobody has systematically picked Mirko apart from start to finish as much as Gabriel did on Saturday.

 

[ooheadsoo]

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Originally Posted by Cousin Patty /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thats why I'm so curious as to what the difference is between the two supposed types of kicks... Cro Cop didnt just get hit and go to the ground and roll around in a daze... he was knocked the ***** out... you cant get any more knocked out than that short of being unconscious or dead... ooheadsoo: what exactly should I be looking for then? i am genuinely curious

Any primers you can find whether online or in the bookstore/library about the some basics of standup would be great - muay thai, karate/kung fu variations, tae kwon do. Different snap kicks can be faster, and have different timings that can throw off the other guy's rhythm or anticipation of your rhythm. Otherwise, axe kicks would never work...but they sometimes do. Never seen an axe kick KO, though. Crocop's kicks are basically muay thai/kickboxing. Most MMA fighters train muay thai for practical reasons.

 

[KinesongPayaso]

after seeing borat's gif, gonzaga's leg doesnt seem to be cramped


but it looks like its the left stomach/rib where he's bent that most of the energy is cramped
but his knee is still bent, which doesnt release as much force as that of a guy who executed it perfectly, and had it straight

if you look closely, you can see just how gonzaga TWISTS his hips(mind you, its far from perfect in terms of fluidity) by looking at his left foot. you can see that gonzaga pivots not on the base of his feet(where the ankle is) but pivots on the part of the feet nearest to the toes. you can see the flicker of the base of his feet (where the ankle is), because of the combination of him reaching high(lifts his feet up) and the twisting of the hips.

there are things to watch out for, to notice the imperfections in that kick
1) the twisting of the hips that I was mentioning didnt really look like twisting, it was more like, he leaned back, and pulled his right leg up, coupled with a little twisting of the body
2) look at gonzaga's left bent arm while in the kicking motion
if he put his weight behind it, and wanted to really power through that kick, his arm would've swung back behind him, testament to the twisting of the body. but in that replay, he used that arm to prepare for the stabilization, so as not to lose balance. this decreases power, but doesnt leave you open if you miss







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Originally Posted by Borat /img/forum/go_quote.gif Werdum pissed me off so much. This is a guy that beat Aleksander Emelianenko handily and Aleks is a deadlier striker than Arlovski. Werdum is also responsible for Gonzaga's only loss, and by strikes. What was that crap against Andrei? Awful.

and emelialenko is a sambo fighter too, same style as arlovski.. although thats a small thing, as it was only his foundation as a fighter. and not the "ONLY SKILL" in mma, starting/founding style isnt so important

 

[ooheadsoo]

I can't find the gif of the kick, but IIRC, Gonzaga's torso was very close to stopped before he snapped his knee to execute the kick. If there had been no opponent, his right leg would likely have come down as his lead leg coupled with a southpaw stance change. If he had executed a muay thai styled high kick, he would have spun around from the momentum of twisting his hips.

Anyway, enough about the kick, already

Anyone with me saying it just wasn't crocop's night? It's not like anyone honestly thinks Gonzaga would beat Crocop in a k-1 style match. Everything just went according to Gonzaga's plan. Crocop was never a fast finisher. He always stalks his opponent unless he's losing. Gonzaga basically took him down and wore him out with potshots before Crocop could get his engine warmed up. He was not in good shape when Herb Dean stood them up, while Gonzaga hardly took any critical hits. It's weird to think that if the fight had continued to the end of the round on the ground, Crocop might have made it to rd.2.