[Crazy*Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by VALIENTE /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...or simply grab a Grado SR60 and forget those amps, DACS, cables, etc.

See, the HD580 also sounds great out of my ipod, contrary to popular opinion here. I find myself thinking it sounds better out of an amp (and get theat audiophile sense of comfort), but when i do a thorough AB test, it is indistinguishable.


On another note, is it normal for a motherboard onboard audio to be 24/192 capable? Mine is.

Let me add one more thing. 6 months ago, convinced that my HD580 were weak sounding without strong and expensive amplification, I checked out a pair of used Ultrasone HFI580 of the used forums, as they are known to be easy to run some say. They were excellent sounding headphones. Bass was a little stronger than the HD580, but the over all the sound was not massively different. I would consider them again or their big brother the HFI780. However, I ended up keeping the HD580 because of the open air design and excellent comfort (not that the HFI580s were bad in that area). When switching from open to close, I did not lose detail or sound quality, just that overall speaker like feeling.

What I did here, was prove (at least to my ears) that the HD580s do not sound weak when "unamped"
You can see my skepticism with alot of rhetoric on this forums, and around the internet, because so much of it contrasts what I hear with my ears. Maybe portables in the past were not as powerful, but my 2nd gen ipod shuffle can pump out alot of juice, louder than I would ever listen to.

 

[Ypoknons]

Like I asked, what tracks are you running through it? At least try the Head-fi Open Your Ears sampler.

 

[Audio Jester]

I can't speak for the HD580's, but I found that the 595's did not respond well to my amp. I was a bit upset at first only because I didn't realise that the headphones had a sound signature that cannot be easily changed. I later got some D2000's and tried them straight out of an Ipod...I was not impressed. So I put them into the amp and instantly they became everything I had hoped they would be. The amp is a Meier, which are well known as being pretty neutral, and it did change the sound vs the un-amped (for the better).

I feel that it is pretty well documented around here about the "law of diminishing returns". I feel that it is difficult to gage different peoples' opinions because it is all relative to the individual. All in all though, once you get a large enough sample of opinions on one topic you start to see trends and generalisations forming. There is also a large difference between different peoples' idea of "critical listening". How critical are you compared with someone else?

At the end of the day if you are happy with no amp/DAC then great, your opinion is valuable. There is enough people though that enjoy this hobby enough (and feel that it is actually worth their time) that a forum of this size even exists.

Golden ears do exist. They are employed by Steinway & Sons, play in internationally renowned orchestras and enjoy headphones as a hobby.

 

[semisight]

Quote:

Originally Posted by VALIENTE /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...or simply grab a Grado SR60 and forget those amps, DACS, cables, etc.

+1!

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy*Carl /img/forum/go_quote.gif What I did here, was prove (at least to my ears) that the HD580s do not sound weak when "unamped" You can see my skepticism with alot of rhetoric on this forums, and around the internet, because so much of it contrasts what I hear with my ears. Maybe portables in the past were not as powerful, but my 2nd gen ipod shuffle can pump out alot of juice, louder than I would ever listen to.

Check the link about amping in my sig, but people tend to get caught up this kind of thing and mis-represent it. I plugged my HD-800s into my iPod the other day too see how they sounded, and I could listen to music fine with them. The players and instruments seemed to all be coming from one blob, from want of a better term. Plugged into one of my amps, the musicians are all separate and distinct and more detail is there. I found with the HD600s that this didn't happen until I had a mid-range amp ($300+) and good source.

The thing is, it's easy to recognise tonal changes (which is why people go all funny over the effect of buying an amp for IEMs, as a lot of them gain an expensive bass boost from doing so) but harder to notice changes in detail, especially if you only listen to modern pop with bad mastering and compression. I listen to a lot more jazz and well-recorded music of other genres now, so all these things are very distinct to me.

 

[Ypoknons]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif The thing is, it's easy to recognise tonal changes (which is why people go all funny over the effect of buying an amp for IEMs, as a lot of them gain an expensive bass boost from doing so) but harder to notice changes in detail, especially if you only listen to modern pop with bad mastering and compression. I listen to a lot more jazz and well-recorded music of other genres now, so all these things are very distinct to me.

+1 which is why I'm asking him about tracks repeatedly. Though mainstream pop isn't that bad, altern and indie was much worse and suffer thoroughly from the volume wars.

 

[Crazy*Carl]

I came here wanting better sound, but that in not really what you get. Instead you get this huge market with people talking about every tiny and insignificant detail about everything related. Its fine, but its not really what I though it would of been. I have found myself liking music somewhat less recently, when all you do is try to get it to sound better. It was just a logical progression. I listen to alot of music thorough headphones and when I found head fi, it was like a dream come true that something like this existed. I hear people calling head-fi a hobby which really doesn't make sense. Listening to music is not a hobby, its just something almost everyone does. I just wanted clear sound! But unfortunately I got mixed up in the AMP/DAC business and its all been totally useless to me. I have even before thought its sounded better, but time and time again, my tests prove that wrong.

 

[Crazy*Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ypoknons /img/forum/go_quote.gif +1 which is why I'm asking him about tracks repeatedly. Though mainstream pop isn't that bad, altern and indie was much worse and suffer thoroughly from the volume wars.

I have listening to almost everything to eliminate this factor.

pop, rock, classical, orchestral, rap, trance, metal

 

[pabbi1]

Something I have (finally) come to realize is that for all the charts, graphs and metrics, each amp (not just each design!) has it's own sound, and 'focus', for lack of a better term. the analogy is like a 6 camera shoot - each has an angle, but certain details of perhaps the slightest shadow of emotion won't be caught by all, and perhaps by only one.

Where this drives people nuts is in microdetail - where a VERY expensive super revealing amp (stats, for instance) fail to catch the wrinkle, yet a lesser resolving dynamic SS just happens to be voiced just right to find it. I experienced this (again) just this week...

All that to say, each amp is a tradeoff - discovering new nuggets is cool, but discouraging that you have to listen to a familiar piece with 6 amps to uncover all the nuggets. it shows that while there is a redundance (nothing new) with most amps, some will resolve more than others, and NONE will resolve everything. None.

So, you are left to find the compromise that best suits you overall, with your range of music, at your listening levels, with your phones and source.

Then you get into resolution, air, PRat, extension, soundstage, seperation, etc, not to mention odd/even order harmonics (very crucial to the resolving equation).

Bottom line: It takes time, patience and *study* to find what you really like. Persistence and determination (NOT budget), alone, are omnipotent.

 

[krmathis]

Luckily we do not all have the same set of ears!

 

[anetode]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earthpeople /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can understand that you don't believe there is a true difference between amps and DACs from your experience, but I don't understand why you have to be so insolent in your replies calling people liars and delusional. Can you explain this to me?

People can be delusional without being liars. There's nothing wrong with having delusions, aside from the fact that they don't have to correspond with reality. The trick in discussing such issues is to realize that people take offense whenever any aspect of their worldview is dismissed or ridiculed. That's one of the common symptoms of delusional thinking which is further reinforced by the social stigma of common delusions being nothing more than lies or crazy. Face it, no one has a perfect grasp on reality and any irrational systems of thought you possess are only a minor semantic leap away from the true to clinical-analysis-type label of being delusional.

Point is, don't get pissed off at (the ironically named) Crazy Carl for saying that the emperor wears no clothes -- get righteously pissed off at the tailor!

Quote:

Originally Posted by pabbi1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Where this drives people nuts is in microdetail - where a VERY expensive super revealing amp (stats, for instance) fail to catch the wrinkle, yet a lesser resolving dynamic SS just happens to be voiced just right to find it. I experienced this (again) just this week...

This is consistent with my own experiences. Minor details I would never even notice through a speaker become insatiable and are missed whenever you no longer hear them in a song. I'd wager that 90% of the money I've spent on this hobby is for those last 10%. As pabbi insinuated, those details are sometimes nothing more than harmonics or minute frequency deviations made prominent by the imperfections of a specific amp or pair of headphones.

Sadly, there's not much incentive for subtle analysis when the complicit claim to hear magical effects from the most dubious tweaks.

 

[Crazy*Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by anetode /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'd wager that 90% of the money I've spent on this hobby is for those last 10%.

This says alot to me! Get out before its to late.

 

[Ypoknons]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy*Carl /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have listening to almost everything to eliminate this factor. pop, rock, classical, orchestral, rap, trance, metal

That's good. That's all I can suggest then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by anetode /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is consistent with my own experiences. Minor details I would never even notice through a speaker become insatiable and are missed whenever you no longer hear them in a song. I'd wager that 90% of the money I've spent on this hobby is for those last 10%. As pabbi insinuated, those details are sometimes nothing more than harmonics or minute frequency deviations made prominent by the imperfections of a specific amp or pair of headphones.

What perplexes me is that we're not exactly comparing differences between US$1000 amps and dacs here... Crazy Carl thinks of differences between a straight iPod and a reasonable amp like the EF2 to be 'indistinguishable' ... We've already gone over the technical evidence in the last thread, but it seems his problems are not yet resolved.

 

[anetode]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ypoknons /img/forum/go_quote.gif Crazy Carl thinks of differences between a straight iPod and a reasonable amp like the EF2 to be 'indistinguishable' ... We've already gone over the technical evidence in the last thread, but it seems his problems are not yet resolved.

With many headphones there are no practical differences. A Grado or D2000 should sound about the same, 'cept for the very low end, but with a T1 you'll probably notice a difference.

 

[Crazy*Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ypoknons /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's good. That's all I can suggest then. What perplexes me is that we're not exactly comparing differences between US$1000 amps and dacs here... Crazy Carl thinks of differences between a straight iPod and a reasonable amp like the EF2 to be 'indistinguishable' ... We've already gone over the technical evidence in the last thread, but it seems his problems are not yet resolved.

I think my problems are beggining to get resolved actually.. to get ride of all the stuff that doesn't help. aka everything except my headphones.