Thoughts on a bunch of DACs (and why delta-sigma kinda sucks, just to get you to think about stuff)
Aug 5, 2014 at 2:00 PM Post #1,201 of 6,500
Sorry, I was talking about hardcore skeptics, you seem reasonable enough
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. ( I don't believe that a cpu or other components will affect much or at all either, a the psu might)
 
Aug 5, 2014 at 3:08 PM Post #1,202 of 6,500
Changes in transport - that can be argued I guess. Changes depending on your OS or CPU? Sorry, but I have to disagree.

 
Different OS, components, and software players can result in significant differences in how the information and digital signal is handled from when it is in the hard drive or SSD to the digital output. Even playing WAV vs FLAC with the same exact computer and software player will result in meaningful differences in CPU usage which will have an effect on jitter.
 
That's a lot of name calling for someone who provides.. well... no scientific basis whatsoever. 
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I don't need to provide science anything, none of the jitter studies are conclusive neither do they claim to be conclusive, it is relatively undiscovered territory and it will remain that way for a very long time because we have on one hand skeptics who think they have all the answers and on the other hand audiophiles and audiophile equipment manufacturers who have tossed aside attempting to objectively validate their subjective experiences or their design philosophies.
 
An ABX test is not designed to do anything but correlate something you guys say 'makes a HUGE AUDIBLE DIFFERENCE'. If that were so, those double blind ABX tests would be passed easily.

 
There are not many audiophiles who claim that the effects of jitter reduction is instantaneously audible, but the way that most audiophiles develop an opinion about audible differences between different components and accessories is usually based upon long-duration listening, not the same as the conditions most subjective audibility DBT ABX tests are done. It is difficult to obtain reliable information from humans who are not designed to process information like machines regarding their conscious perceptions or reporting of conscious perceptions which is distinct from their theoretical thresholds of physical sensory perception and subconscious processing of the information. When attempting to test the thresholds of conscious or subconscious perception of minutiae you can't simply say "DBT ABX". Researchers will throw tens of thousands of dollars at making sure the test subjects are given optimal test conditions so as to be able to minimize false positives and false negatives in even something as simple as taste tests which they know can significantly differ moment to moment from what humans are theoretically capable of correctly discerning, yet you talk about the testing of audibility thresholds as if it's a simple matter of instantly and consciously being aware of things.
 
It should also be said that I have myself done my fair share of DBT ABX tests, and when there actually IS an audible difference, I tend to pass them easily. The same can be said for most people who have been tested for things with a clearly audible difference which can actually be scientifically explained.

 
No one knows exactly what is consciously audible and what is not audible, the physical limits of human sensory perception is very different from what is consciously perceivable, and all scientific explanation can do regarding the SUBJECTIVE limitations of conscious awareness of minutiae in sensory perception is attempt to estimate what the threshold might be, and it should be noted, such threshold is constantly changing moment to moment, and different person to person. Everyone knows that human are extremely unreliable when it comes to reporting their own sensory perception, but some people won't admit that this tendency for false positives will also result in false negatives. I don't think people will ever create audibility threshold studies that actually minimize false negatives to anywhere near the same degree that studies on other humans senses have, first because most people have already decided that they know how measurements and audibility correlate, and second because there's no money in determining audibility thresholds.
 
You'll have to pardon me if your argument of "after a few hours, the difference becomes clear, the sound is less fatiguing, it's my gut feeling" only serves my disbelief. The fact of the matter is that audible memory only lasts a few seconds, so what you're sure happens after an hour, well... could simply be nothing at all.

 
Humans don't just directly sense the world around them, they also sense the internal world. What can't be sensed in the external world directly by the conscious mind can still be physically received by human sensory equipment, processed unconsciously, and finally sensed subconsciously, such as in how the person feels, especially during very long periods of exposure. If you were to have two duplicate humans in the same exact duplicate environments, then exposed one to audio, and exposed the second to the same audio with minute differences, the sound waves would affect the humans differently, result in different neurons to be fired, etc., and the issue then is can the conscious mind become aware of the difference. Given enough time, differences between the two different audio exposure can result in the two otherwise identical humans to feel differently and associate their subconscious feelings to the stimuli which they were not able to consciously be aware of directly, especially when the difference is something like minute decibel level changes of sibilance causing fatigue, minute softening of bass which results in less stress, minute addition of even order harmonics which give a sense of euphony, etc. How many studies do you know that actually give people ideal conditions in which the conscious audibility of minutiae, if it exists, will be able to manifest itself? All the ones I read have used inadequate equipment, audio, testing procedures, and also test subjects. Personally if I wanted to test the threshold of audibility of humans, I would be about a billion times more picky about these things than the studies I've read, and you can bet the only test subjects I would use would be people who have proven to have photographic auditory memory. When you tell a person to go into a DBT ABX, with skeptics ready to pounce on him when he fails the poorly designed tests, obviously you will actually increase the occurrence of false negatives if such a test is ever done because it is far from ideal conditions, and the test results wouldn't be worth much of anything other than to prove what we should (but apparently many don't) already know, that testing audibility threshold is not easy and not something you run around demanding people to do.
 
Aug 5, 2014 at 3:30 PM Post #1,203 of 6,500
   
Different OS, components, and software players can result in significant differences in how the information and digital signal is handled from when it is in the hard drive or SSD to the digital output. Even playing WAV vs FLAC with the same exact computer and software player will result in meaningful differences in CPU usage which will have an effect on jitter.
 

 
If properly configured, various OS's and storage devices will not be audibly different.  Many of the differences heard are because of improper setup and are easily corrected through proper/normal configuration.
 
As for the variability in WAV/FLAC and CPU utilization, unless you're running a Vic 20 or your current computer is already CPU throttled, there won't be a difference in jitter based on percentage of available CPU cycles.  This is easy to verify - run your player of choice and bring up the appropriate tool to look at resource utilization for the player's process - not much to see and with modern caching, no impact to jitter.
 
Aug 5, 2014 at 3:39 PM Post #1,204 of 6,500
I'm curious what you all think of John Swenson's three part Q&A on Dacs and Jitter.  (First of three here - http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-1-what-digital , you'll have to google links to the other two since audiostream fails to provide direct links...)  The way he gets down on a micro level and explains digital, return currents and how ramp time and ground plane noise impact the functioning of inverters makes a whole lot of sense to me.  This isn't so much about the audibility of jitter as explaining the engineering challenges in minimizing it.
 
As an aside, I have to take issue with all the vilifying of skeptics
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  God forbid we embrace the application of critical thinking and make a practice of questioning propositions that strike us as unsupported or that we simply don't understand.  Someone might actually learn something in the process!  At the end of the day, a reasonable skeptic is just an analytical thinker who is interested in parsing degrees of uncertainty while recognizing that very little in life is 100% provable (see Reid and Hume).  There is nothing in the word that implies behaving like an obstinate ass on internet forums.  Rather, it is the fanatical audio objectivists and, conversely subjectivists, who refuse to question their assumptions or consider the possibility of changing any of their positions, that stand as a perpetual obstacle to civil discourse, learning and advancement.   
 
Aug 5, 2014 at 4:23 PM Post #1,205 of 6,500
Did I wander into the SS section? I knew I shoulda taken that left turn at Albuquerque.
 
Aug 5, 2014 at 4:23 PM Post #1,206 of 6,500
Interesting thread. However, as a Sabre fan perhaps a Sabre-only thread will be created someday that's like this one.
 
Aug 5, 2014 at 4:27 PM Post #1,207 of 6,500
Hahaha well sabre does not DSD. And PCM us clear and detailed but somehow
It is plastic to me. I am not knocking it
Just my view it could be a nice tube amp after the DAC would fix things though
Al
 
Aug 5, 2014 at 4:28 PM Post #1,208 of 6,500
  The jitter studies I have seen were inconclusive, poorly done, but still suggest humans can be sensitive to very minute levels of jitter. I don't think science will ever figure out in any meaningful way the conscious, let alone the subconscious, thresholds of audibility of jitter, because not only do they not care to use the correct test equipment or audio tracks, and they don't even know what type of jitter to use or have any appreciation of how to minimize false negatives, oblivious of what combinations of equipment, sound clips, and jitter to use to make jitter more audible or in what ways they should become audible, and they don't even know what to look for other than "HE SAYS HE HEARS IT".
 
If there is one type of auditory minutiae that humans can detect, it is time domain issues like jitter because humans have a very fine sense of time delays in order to help spatial positioning of sound sources, whereas humans may subconsciously "wash over" minutiae in frequency response, SNR, and THD, because it serves little purpose for humans to differentiate between such minutiae in the real world other than to attempt poorly designed ABX tests to amuse idiots who have no idea of how unscientific their tests are. Scientific bigots will never appreciate the possibility that when people experience the reduction of jitter in their audiophile gear, it may exist primarily as a subconscious awareness of the reduction of "wow and flutter" that may be as subtle as a "gut feeling" or "less fatigued feeling" which may be cumulative or take even over an hour to form, after which the listener might feel that the sound seems more "right", or possibly even worse if the reduction of jitter causes fatiguing sounds to become more pronounced. Nah, it's gonna be a bunch of smug-faced science bigots demanding that people subject themselves to highly unoptimal ABX tests designed to make people fail. Meanwhile, I'll enjoy my $500 jitter reduction box while audio science remains in the dark ages.


studies show that what most gears confront us with will usually be indistinguishable in ABX (so at best not very audible). at some point it becomes audible because it will start to change more than just the timing of high frequencies. and the higher the jitter the lower the affected frequency.
in that situation (so high level of jitter) we now might get something like the treble sound at maybe 16khz (as it should be) + some noise at -60 or -40 or say -20db in some real bad situations(obviously if it's already that bad at 16khz it's gonna be worst at 18khz and better at 14khz).
usually sounds at 16khz are rolled off, if not on the album(if it was from a vinyl it certainly is), then I better not have a "warm" amp, else it would mean more roll off here. then I have to use a headphone (I don't count IEMs, most don't have much sound if any at 16khz) that doesn't roll off itself.
so chances are that my jitter will affect some music that is already 5 10 or 20db lower than the mids or bass, and the noise generated in a real bad situation is still gonna be at -20 or -30db below that already lower sound. and then you add the fact that we are a lot less sensitive to trebles than we are to mids(when I try to make some equal loudness EQ with something supposed to be EQed flat-ishhh already I end up with around 25db difference compared to mids and that's my ears). that's why we tend to say that it is not gonna be audible, because in most normal situations, it will not be for one reason or another and usually an accumulation of reasons.
sure if you have the worst system with super high jitter and everything with boosted trebles, and a young man's hearing. then you might just end up hearing jitter at some point. people saying that jitter will not be audible aren't saying it's impossible, they're saying that it's unlikely while listening to music.
 
now your assumption about science and those people who seem to know nothing and do everything wrong, well someone might believe you, but even on the old videos from MIT, jitter seemed to be a very hot topic and they already know a great deal about it(more than I could understand at some point). but if you're ok with your delusion that somehow you or that one guy making your gear in a garage actually knows more than the people who made the components for that guy to use, then so be it. but it's really not that hard to know how much you're wrong. jitter has always been a concern and always will be and has been very much studied because as it happens, all of science and electronic doesn't turn around audio and jitter doesn't disappear as soon as you're making a computer instead of a DAC.
 
then about time delays, maybe you should read a little more of what those "amused" "bigot" "idiots" know about time delays. it would help you avoid talking crap as if you knew your stuff. positioning cues are a mix of signature and time delays, obviously the frequency response is so much affected by so many factors that it doesn't really mater and we have a hard time telling up and down in music when it's so precise in real life. for one guy the sound will go higher up then at some point start to go in front, or behind, it depends as much on the sound and our equipment as on the shape of our ears.
so what is left is time delays, yes! you got one! except that's time delays between left and right you silly willy. half the people can't tell when headphones have inverted polarity and that's a 180° "lag". jitter might be audible, but not for spatial positioning. try getting your reasons straight before you start getting angry at the universe.
also you might like to know that jitter is usually given in nanoseconds. when you use a crossfeed (that's actually used for positioning cues) you mix left and right with delays like 280µs for Mayer crossover(or something close). and it's not hard to find the time delay between left and right(again it has nothing to do with jitter in the dac as it will affect both sides identically) you take the size you head, sound is 340m/s, not hard stuff.
anyway you're using lags 1000times bigger with left and right differences as material to say that jitter matters ^_^. but yeah go ahead and point out all the little defects of abx being unscientific (it's a subjective test, it's not perfect because it uses human for measurement).
 
then you talk about subconscious "wow and flutter"... amazing!!!!!  again the jitter we are talking about is how much? let's say 100ns(poor us). worst case scenario 20khz wave is 1/20000=50µs long (hope I didn't fail here^_^). so this very very bad jitter of 100ns in our equipment is also a 0.1µs jitter. it will move sideways the 20khz signal from 1/500th of it's own period. and you hear 20000 of those every second. you're gonna pretend you can interpret that magnitude of variation as wow and flutter? lol
let's save the day and pretend you were talking about vinyl and not digital streaming. maybe sometimes you should stop thinking theory to justify your opinions, and take a look at numbers, you might have to change a few of your opinions afterward.
what we may hear at some point is the noise generated by the slightly irregular signal(but that also depends on the type of jitter, a regular one does nothing at all). that's because by being late the wave ends up with an amplitude slightly different, what in sound translates in some noise added to the original signal. noise as I said much lower than the sound of the 20khz itself. and as we go lower in frequency the lag becomes less and less significant in regard to the size of one period of the wave, making it effectively meaningless. so my fun example was a worst case scenario where you could hear 20khz...
 
enjoy you 500$ jitter box, maybe it does something else and is still meaningful, but you obviously have no idea why you bought it.
some people buy paintings, I've been told it doesn't affect sound, yet I find it relaxing and less fatiguing than looking at the wall. you think I'm onto something here?
 
Aug 5, 2014 at 4:48 PM Post #1,209 of 6,500
  On the argument that the switches themselves can color or distort the sound, this is a possibility; but I feel that it is unlikely that the switches will impact the sound so much as to make DACs indistinguishable.

my first attempt at switches some years ago went fairly bad because the switch I was using had both sides bleeding into each others(it was some cheap stuff to switch between headphone and speakers with super long cables). it's wasn't big, but obviously it made everything more "alike" so I failed to discriminate a lot of stuff that were actually audibly different.
also, I don't know if it's because of a common ground or something I don't get, but some amps I tried had hiss while plugged to a switch with another amp on the other input. but didn't hiss when plugged alone on the switch or in normal use. so it's a great tool, but it's always good to do a few tests aside from the switch to know what to expect.
 
I still take a bad switch to manual cable switching any day. my brain is too much of a joker to be left alone with several seconds delays.
 
Aug 5, 2014 at 4:58 PM Post #1,210 of 6,500
Interesting thread. However, as a Sabre fan perhaps a Sabre-only thread will be created someday that's like this one.

 
Well, you can take tidbits from here. I don't like SABRE, but I can certainly pretend to.
 
  1. Vega - best SABRE DAC I've heard so far. hyperdetailed, great microdynamics, attack, and good macrodynamics. EXACT mode via USB results in a warmer more liquid sound. on the brighter side, but good bass extension. Sounds best being fed with DSD or hires PCM with better microdynamic rendering and authority of just digging in. (I think there's some circuitry in there to convert hires PCM to DSD internally.) Did not need OR5. Sounded best with EXACT mode.
  2. Audio-GD NFB7.32.43.546.45452.343.rev34344.Nineteeneightfour - hyperdetailed, attack, good macrodynamics. Sort of the bridge between above and below item. Generally Vega sounds more refined. Those who like SABRE will not notice any SABRE treble oddities - it's a very solid standard SABRE sound. Neutralish sig. USB is quite capable, but OR5 provides even more resolution.
  3. X-Sabre - slightly odd last octave (typical of all SABRE, so SABRE fans will not notice anything askew), but no stridency. even tonal response - "neutral" for lack of a better term. fast, detailed, resolving, good attack. great results with better microdynamics when fed DSD. downsides are lack of bass texture and pitch differentiation. don't get me wrong, I like this DAC, and would love it, especially considering its price if I were a SABRE fan.
  4. Invicta - attempts to warm up and provide body to the SABRE sound, but with disastrous results. Every note or sound rendering has body. Juxtaposed with slight stridency, just weird. No oddities in the last octave. Some congestion when things get difficult. Poor bass pitch differentiation and texture. Filters had a huge difference, but one of them was clearly the best. Better with SD card. but overall a huge disappointment. I really wanted to like it upon initial listen, but the more I heard it, the less I liked it. Covering up the SABRE sound with tricks is something only an immoral hypocritical Jedi would do.
  5. Typical Chinese SABRE DAC $899 and under - don't bother. just don't bother.
  6. Mytek - lean, but not brighter than Vega. by this, i mean sub and low bass seem to be missing. Upper mid  lower treble glare galore. burning in DAC for several days (a la Stereophile) did not help. a used unit left on for several days did not help. thousands of noobs who upgraded from iphones or bestbuy crap think it's the beesknees - they are not wrong -  but in the overall scheme of things pretty unlistenable. unless you like to sit in the orchestra right next to the horn flare of the french horn guy.
 
Aug 5, 2014 at 5:49 PM Post #1,212 of 6,500
People that hedge all their bets on science crack me up. They absolutely accept nothing but what is scientifically measured-and deny the possibility that said measurements are actually limited in their ability to quantify subjective nuances of the human auditory system. Then a scientific advancement comes along that can measure one of these nuances or two-and they're all for it.
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 You've really gotta learn to straddle that line in order to keep your head out of the sand.
 
-Daniel
 
Aug 5, 2014 at 8:50 PM Post #1,213 of 6,500
I was referring to those objective zealots who claim science as the be-all-end-all truth in audio. Sounds like maybe you feel as if you yourself fall into that category, seeing as I never picked you out.

Good to know though, and like you said-to each their own.

-Daniel
 
Aug 5, 2014 at 9:03 PM Post #1,214 of 6,500
Take thus as one who likes to argue my point. This not worth arguing over. We need to move on with this. Weather what side we are on .

Al
 
Aug 5, 2014 at 9:06 PM Post #1,215 of 6,500
   
Well, you can take tidbits from here. I don't like SABRE, but I can certainly pretend to.
 
  1. Vega - best SABRE DAC I've heard so far. hyperdetailed, great microdynamics, attack, and good macrodynamics. EXACT mode via USB results in a warmer more liquid sound. on the brighter side, but good bass extension. Sounds best being fed with DSD or hires PCM with better microdynamic rendering and authority of just digging in. (I think there's some circuitry in there to convert hires PCM to DSD internally.) Did not need OR5. Sounded best with EXACT mode.
  2. Audio-GD NFB7.32.43.546.45452.343.rev34344.Nineteeneightfour - hyperdetailed, attack, good macrodynamics. Sort of the bridge between above and below item. Generally Vega sounds more refined. Those who like SABRE will not notice any SABRE treble oddities - it's a very solid standard SABRE sound. Neutralish sig. USB is quite capable, but OR5 provides even more resolution.
  3. X-Sabre - slightly odd last octave (typical of all SABRE, so SABRE fans will not notice anything askew), but no stridency. even tonal response - "neutral" for lack of a better term. fast, detailed, resolving, good attack. great results with better microdynamics when fed DSD. downsides are lack of bass texture and pitch differentiation. don't get me wrong, I like this DAC, and would love it, especially considering its price if I were a SABRE fan.
  4. Invicta - attempts to warm up and provide body to the SABRE sound, but with disastrous results. Every note or sound rendering has body. Juxtaposed with slight stridency, just weird. No oddities in the last octave. Some congestion when things get difficult. Poor bass pitch differentiation and texture. Filters had a huge difference, but one of them was clearly the best. Better with SD card. but overall a huge disappointment. I really wanted to like it upon initial listen, but the more I heard it, the less I liked it. Covering up the SABRE sound with tricks is something only an immoral hypocritical Jedi would do.
  5. Typical Chinese SABRE DAC $899 and under - don't bother. just don't bother.
  6. Mytek - lean, but not brighter than Vega. by this, i mean sub and low bass seem to be missing. Upper mid  lower treble glare galore. burning in DAC for several days (a la Stereophile) did not help. a used unit left on for several days did not help. thousands of noobs who upgraded from iphones or bestbuy crap think it's the beesknees - they are not wrong -  but in the overall scheme of things pretty unlistenable. unless you like to sit in the orchestra right next to the horn flare of the french horn guy.

The NFB7 is the only DAC above that you didn't formally rank; If the Vega is #8 and the X-Sabre is #14, where does the NFB7 slot in?
 

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