[AustinValentine]

Disclaimer: I didn't buy that Gen V. But...
 
The nine of past ten Gen V and Gen Va models that I've seen have sold for between $1400 and $1650. (Note: Purrin's was the one out of ten that went for less. The person that bought it got a fantastic deal.) Most of these sold before the r2r discussion in this thread began. $1750 isn't a huge deviation from historical trends. In my experience, vintage Mark Levinson DACs go for between $1700 and $3500. Used Spectral SDR2000s go for between $2000 and $4000. Vintage Linn's go between $800 and $4000. 
 
They go for those prices because their performance is excellent even when compared to modern high-end DACs. 
 
Summit Fi DACs in this hobby are expensive. Period. Consider that the dCS Scarlatti stack (ring DAC, upsampler, transport, clock) is $67,000. LH's Da Vinci DAC is $20,000. The Berkeley Audio Alpha Reference is $16,000. 

EMM Labs DAC2X Reference DAC is $15,000. Even dropping down from five figures: The Meitner Audio MA-1 is $7000. The PS Audio Directstream DAC is $6000. The Resonessence Invicta is $4000. Hell, even the Auralic Vega is $3500. 
 
As the price point on new gear continues its upward creep and the quantity of available vintage r2r DACs continue to decline (due to age-related failure or unavailability), expect the prices on well-kept specimens to continue to rise. Not because of any magical hype train, but because of the state high end DAC prices and simple supply/demand curves. 

 

[diamondears]

As I'm sure you have noticed I haven't been here in the thread throwing gushing compliments at MM's PR skills, regardless of where I stand on that issue his technical knowledge and ability to articulate it into amazing sounding DACs has been established without question. I may not like how MM comes across in public (and I'm sure he couldn't give two pinches of coon crap about that) but if MM says it is the totality of the design that should be good enough for you, for anybody. Why would he lie? Do you really believe they are so desperate for money that Schiit needs to use trickery to market their products? The idea is preposterous, Schiit has built their success on the sound of the products, and if MM has put his many years of un-paralleled skill and experience into this design I think that should tell you a great deal. And at this price point you think they are grabbing money? That just doesn't stand up at all. In the world of boutique priced DACs they could easily have asked more and gotten it. I think your going to end up chasing your tail around and getting mud all over yourself. Why not admit you may have jumped to conclusions and wait and hear for yourself?

I've never said the Yggy's sound sucks. Again, I just don't like the Sabre-D-S sucks statement when it's not proven that the glare is attributable EXCLUSIVELY to the DAC chip. My suspect is the stock standard digital filter used as this is the common denominator in all the DACs I've heard that I felt are glare-y.

I also said I suspect this thread is related to the Sabre/D-S sucks statement and are used to advertise the Yggy...but I never said Schiit is fooling us in the claimed excellent sound of the Yggy. I fact I said I'd like to try and would likely buy it to hear for myself. The 15-day trial for $115 plus shipping is reasonable for me.

So you think Mike's whole life work, spending many years, thousands of hours, and countless long days and nights to painstakingly develop an elaborate custom platform for the AD5791, because it isn't designed for audio applications, was an elaborate ploy just so they could market the Yggy as an R2R instead of a D-S DAC? And then once they finally succeeded, they only charged a minimal cost considering the bill of materials? Lol

See above. And if that's the case (not saying it isn't), why the need to bash Sabre/D-S DAC chips and proclaim them the primary culprit in present day digital glare?

 

[Sonic Defender]

I've never said the Yggy's sound sucks. Again, I just don't like the Sabre-D-S sucks statement when it's not proven that the glare is attributable EXCLUSIVELY to the DAC chip. My suspect is the stock standard digital filter used as this is the common denominator in all the DACs I've heard that I felt are glare-y.

I also said I suspect this thread is related to the Sabre/D-S sucks statement and are used to advertise the Yggy...but I never said Schiit is fooling us in the claimed excellent sound of the Yggy. I fact I said I'd like to try and would likely buy it to hear for myself. The 15-day trial for $115 plus shipping is reasonable for me.
See above. And if that's the case (not saying it isn't), why the need to bash Sabre/D-S DAC chips and proclaim them the primary culprit in present day digital glare?

Hey, on some parts of your arguments I'm with you in the sense that I also don't think all D-S suck, there is a degree of subjectivity that needs to be considered. It is quite reasonable to expect that for some people a well implemented D-S DAC might be their preference. I have never heard an R2R design myself so I just have no frame of reference. In July we will be doing blind listening tests of my M51 versus the Yggy to see if anybody actually does prefer a D-S signature. I guess it is possible?
 
Anyway, as I said, I think while it sounds like you have some understanding of filters and their role in sound reproduction, I think it is fair to say that MMskills and knowledge would be orders of magnitude greater and he has told people that the sound of the Yggy is the totality of the design which includes filters. I would say unless you are able to really technically evaluate the Yggy you should just take his word for it and let it go. Glad to hear that you see the price is actually quite reasonable.
 
Frankly, had I been more patient I would have skipped the M51 (which I like very much by the way) and just grabbed a Yggy, but now I'm going to spend a year with the M51 and move to the Yggy in 2016. Hopefully the acrimony in this thread starts to tone down. Cheers.

 

[Ableza]

I use three  Wavelength DACs with Wolfson D/S devices, and one old school Kora DAC with a TI D/S device and none of them suck.  Yggdrasil does not suck either. 

 

 

[prot]

The Theta Gen V / V A cost a lot of money in their day. Adjust that to inflation and one will find it is within today's MSB pricing range. Yes, even 20 years later £1100 is not a bad price for great technology, (more than) competitive with anything today's R2R, but no longer made and only available in limited and decreasing quantities.

If NOS tube prices are any indication, expect the prices for the great R2R DACs of the hey-day to go only one way.

One sample of wonderland prices (nos tubes and yes I tried some) does not justify another .. same as any wrong does not justify another

Btw, you should be very happy with those prices since you have a theta v. One Q: now that you heard the full power of iggy, are you goin to sell the theta and other DACs you may have?

Guess the same Q would apply to anyone who bought an iggy.

 

[negura]

The price is more than justified by the sound quality imo. The Gen Vs have been selling for that price or more already. Nothing unusual.
But I would not be surprised if prices will actually increase overtime.
 
I need more than one DAC, so the Theta is here to stay for now. However no doubt the Yggdrasil is superior in SQ. But they also do sound quite differently, Theta even more so subject to whatever interface / source is feeding it.
 
Also until I find a better Coax/AES interface, I feel I have not unlocked quite the full potential of the Theta. The Yggdrasil's built-in USB interface seems to really good so far. But whether I decide to shift resources this way, that's an entirely different matter. Convenience may just decide this matter for me.

 

[juanitox]

1750$ for a theta gen V  what a bargain !!   look at the price of the other 20 years old R2R legend Dac   ( PCM63 and cello output stage)  

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/Cello-Dac-D-A-Converter-/251945975324?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_146&hash=item3aa9267e1c

 

[7ryder]

  Color me still very skeptical of this Schiit hype train.
 
Partly because their previous offerings were my first foray into headfi and they left me bitterly disappointed. The Bifrost was harsh, lifeless, and with more grain than your typical supermarket trail mix. The Lyr was a smeary, blurred up mess when driving my then HD600s. Their sound quality was equally matched by their build quality (I somehow managed to cut myself on the side of the Lyr in the unboxing process). This was a couple of years ago now and maybe my memory is exaggerated but to me they were sloppy and half-assed.
 
Partly also because of their marketing approach, and of how their community approaches their products. Putting down your competitors' efforts as irrelevant when the bulk of your current product line is based on the same tech, and veiling insults behind edgy humor may speak to a lot of people, but to me it's simply repulsive. Schiit, to me, is a case of approaching a potentially extraordinary product in spite of the people behind it, and to date, I've heard more about how every DAC not Yggy sucks more than I've heard about how good the Yggy actually is. I'm still curious about the complete radio silence from the typical headfi publications.
 
And lastly because the Vega/Taurus combo driving my LCD-X is everything the list put the Yggy up to be. I don't get any harshness or grain in the treble. I hear full, meaty mids, and a flat and extended bass. The sound stage, separation, and detail are all exemplary. Perhaps not as decadently musical as my living room set up (Thorens 125 -> Pure Audio phono -> Hiachi MOSFET -> B&W bookshelves) but I don't think anything digital can approach that sort of listening experience to my ears, no matter how hard they try to approximate.

Regarding Schiit's marketing approach, you must feel very strongly about this for you to join Head-fi today just to post both about it and your bad experiences with Schiit.  
 
First, welcome to HF (I think) and secondly, some people get their marketing approach and some don't and some folks have bought their products and loved them and some haven't.  I understand, you don't like them and I'm happy for you that your Auralic stack works well for you.
 
Yggy is the first piece of Schiit that I've owned, so I'm not a fanboy and I also can't comment upon Bifrost's sound, but it is the best DAC I've had in my main system...beating out some DACs that retail for 6X+ Yggy's retail price.  Yes, to my ears it is that good and if it wasn't, I'd say so.
 
It looks like you have some disposable cash, so get a Yggy and decide for yourself if it's hype or not.  If you're in the states, you're only out a couple of hundred bucks if you don't like it. 

 

[7ryder]

The title of this thread and Moffat's t-shirt are strikingly of same architecture and ultimate intent and eventual destination.

I think Moffat was originally just busting balls with that t-shirt.  There are also pictures of him in a "ask me about my big DAC" t-shirt and no one is getting upset about the size of Yggy compared to those little girly-man DS DACs 

 
Mike has now stated that he thinks his Yggy design is better, but so what?  
 
Why are some of the folks that just arrived here on this thread so threatened by Purrin's rankings/opinions and what Mike has said?
 
YOUR DAC STILL SOUNDS THE SAME WAY IT DID PRIOR TO YGGY BEING INTRODUCED!  
 
you thought it sounded great then, it still sounds great to you now, right?  Or is it just that you have to be proven that your POV is the correct one?
 
newsflash -- there are no absolutes, especially in audio.

 

[snip3r77]

where can I get/buy the "big DAC" shirt?

 

[prot]

The price is more than justified by the sound quality imo. The Gen Vs have been selling for that price or more already. Nothing unusual.
But I would not be surprised if prices will actually increase overtime.

I need more than one DAC, so the Theta is here to stay for now. However no doubt the Yggdrasil is superior in SQ. But they also do sound quite differently, Theta even more so subject to whatever interface / source is feeding it.

Also until I find a better Coax/AES interface, I feel I have not unlocked quite the full potential of the Theta. The Yggdrasil's built-in USB interface seems to really good so far. But whether I decide to shift resources this way, that's an entirely different matter. Convenience may just decide this matter for me.

Thx for the fast answer.
My understanding of your post is "iggy is not better than theta v, just different .. so I'm keeping both". Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[frenchbat]

Thx for the fast answer.
My understanding of your post is "iggy is not better than theta v, just different .. so I'm keeping both". Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

 Originally Posted by negura 

However no doubt the Yggdrasil is superior in SQ.
 

Sorry Prot, you're wrong.

 

[negura]

Thx for the fast answer.
My understanding of your post is "iggy is not better than theta v, just different .. so I'm keeping both". Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

 
I think I was very clear when I said  "no doubt the Yggdrasil is superior in SQ". Both are excellent, but there are levels and levels of excellence. What I also learnt, is that I would be interested in principle what I could get out of the Theta with a better interface/source. And Yggdrasil for that matter and perhaps this would be outside using USB with both.

 

[evillamer]

Maybe Mike Moffat can once and for all prove diamondears right(or seriously wrong) about R2R by designing a mid-tier Gungnir gen 2 using a AKM "D-S" chip but implemented with the same digital filter as Ygg.(if that's possible)

 

[Ableza]

I doubt very much that Mr. Moffat cares even half a semi-digested burrito about whether any Internet denizen thinks he's right or wrong.  In fact I don't know him personally, but I do know several people like him with similar skill sets (and I share his "generational position") and most of the people I do know would likely say to the Internet something along the lines of, "Buy my Schiit.  Or don't.  And if you don't like my approach go out and build some Schiit of your own."