The Listeners' Manifesto
Jul 1, 2001 at 7:38 PM Post #2 of 27
That is an interesting read. I agree with much of what's in there. Unfortunately, when I go to a store to audition equipment, the only measuring instruments I have are my ears, hooked up to a pair of headphones that are hooked up to a portable headphone amp and my Monster Interlink 400 MkII dual-RCA-to-mini interconnect. I also bring my own music.
 
Jul 1, 2001 at 7:40 PM Post #3 of 27
I liked this statement:

Quote:

Finally, do we really have the hubris to believe that the resolution of test instruments devised in the last few decades exceeds that of human hearing acuity, refined through millions of years of evolution? The reluctance to admit that measurements fail to quantify all aspects of audio component quality stems from a reluctance to accept the limits of our technical understanding, and indeed, of the limits of science itself.


 
Jul 1, 2001 at 7:49 PM Post #4 of 27
Quick, delete that before Mike Walker sees it!!!
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Jul 1, 2001 at 8:08 PM Post #5 of 27
I think that evolution and time statement is a bit quirky and a bit human-centric. Regardless of the million years of evolution I don't think human hearing is something to brag about. The ability to recognize musical patterns maybe, but not hearing acuity.

Do computers devised in the last few decades exceed our ability to crunch numbers, refined through million years of evolution.

Do cars exceed our ability to run with human legs, refined through million years of evolution.

Uhhh if there is one thing humans have refined in the million years of evolution is the ability to create and use tools.

I just don't get what bringing up evolution had to do with anything. You can argue how much more time you had to evolve over your resident swamp alligator, but it'll still probably kick your ass in a swamp brawl.
 
Jul 1, 2001 at 8:18 PM Post #6 of 27
Quote:

Originally posted by Tim D
You can argue how much more time you had to evolve over your resident swamp alligator, but it'll still probably kick your ass in a swamp brawl.


Huh?

Anyway, I understand your point (I think). But the gist of what I'm trying to say (and one of the reasons I like that quote) is that I believe that measurements can't answer the question of what is better to any individual like that person's own ears.

I know that a $25.00 portable CD player measures better than a $6000.00 Linn turntable setup. But I know, thanks to my ears, that the Linn sounds infinitely better (than even the best CD players I've heard). In that sense, I do feel that my acuity about something is indeed greater than the instruments.
 
Jul 1, 2001 at 9:12 PM Post #7 of 27
LOL

Tim D. I was just about to post a similar observation when I was interupted by a PM. Although swamp alligators weren't in my analogy.

I was also thinking that test equipment doesn't possess an imagination or suffer from extranious influences like preconception, aesthetic appeal, brand preferences, peer pressure, ego, limited accurate sonic memory, etc.

Also, test equipment can be calibrated.

Like all human beings, an experienced, long in the tooth "expert" reviewer's hearing capability deteriorates with age. Like "past their prime" professionals....be they athletes, singers, race car drivers, or audio listening experts...many will refuse to acknowledge their growing limitations because of financial or egotistic reasons, or simply because they don't notice it themselves.

So eventually you wind up with a bunch of very dedicated, sincere, skilled, professional listeners who can't hear worth a damn, advising the audiophile world what's what.

I hadn't thought about Stanley Lipschitz in years. He's was a regular "letter to the editor" contributor to Sound & Vision. Needless to say, it wasn't all fan mail.

Actually, that particular piece is very well written with some very good arguments. Arguments that can only properly be addressed by as equally knowledgeable "experts" from the other camp. But I know it's got me re-evaluating some thoughts.

The article does point out that the extremists in either camp, can give a bad impression. The truth lies somewhere near the middle I would imagine....although closer to the objective camp

IMHO.
 
Jul 1, 2001 at 9:24 PM Post #8 of 27
I also agree that the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but the final decision has to be made by what you hear.

I've never bought a piece of equipment because it had the flattest measured frequency response, the lowest measured jitter, no measurable wow and flutter (young audiophiles are now asking, what the heck is wow and flutter), the lowest THD, the greatest measured stereo separation (as a new fan of crossfeed, I pretty much force that issue), the lowest measured capacitance, the lowest measured inductance, the lowest measured resistance, etc.

Though there is some value in those measurements, our ears (and, yes, maybe the brains they're attached to and the many things -- for better or worse -- that also come with those brains) are what finally tell each and every one of us what sounds good.

I trust measurements to a small degree. I trust the opinions of people I at least somewhat trust (even if only through forums or reading their reviews) to a greater degree. And I trust what I hear most of all.
 
Jul 1, 2001 at 9:27 PM Post #9 of 27
I don't have a problem with the message but the messenger. The evolution point was a silly argument. Its main argument using a comparison of time between decades and a million years.

I guess I'm the only one that found it strange of the use of citing evolution in an argument about the limits of science!

I also don't trust printed specs...cause printed specs often plain out lie anyhow. My ears can already tell me that my Denon-370 does not have as high the S/N ratio as stated. My ears also tell me that the Creek OBH-11 has a S/N ratio that far exceeds 60 dbs.

I use printed specs only to confirm what I hear...but if there is a discrepancy I trust my ears first and would rather say the printed spec is just outright wrong.

When I look at headroom graphs I notice how the graphs correlate or don't correlate with what I hear, not how my hearing correlates with the graphs. It was very easy for me to KNOW that the graphs on the Ety's weren't ideal because I trust my ears more than printed graphs. And of course graphs or specs will be meaningless unless you have already heard some phones that are tested as a reference in order to even interprete what any of the graphs or specs say.
 
Jul 1, 2001 at 10:52 PM Post #10 of 27
Hey TimD,

I have a couple things to say to you concerning people and math. Number one, NO computers do NOT exceed a humans ability to comprehend mathematics. Remember that a computer does not "comprehend" mathematics, it is as good as an abacus, utterly without life.

Take for instance TimD a football player. Imagine what his mind is doing as he runs down the field, legs and arms pumping. He turns his head, his inner ear suddenly reports an imbalance but it is overrided by his knowledge of the fact that he turned his head and he asks his mind to recalculate fast enough to stay balanced as he looks over his shoulder, still running, still balanced, scans for the ball in the sky, scans for it and locates it, calculates its trajectory based on a sampling of speed, height and angle to the ground, readjusts his course, reaches out with both hands at the exact moment of necessity remaining balanced at all times and finally catching the ball on his finger tips and running into the endzone for a score. I have said it before TimD people are trully math MACHINES. We exist in a world of math and our interaction with that world is purely mathematical. It is so EASY for us to understand these principles of math that we no longer need to calculate it. Thus trying to calculate as a computer does is very difficult for us. However I ASSURE you it is not us but the COMPUTERS that are deficient.

And of course TimD remember that we made the computers, and whether they seem more powerfull to you or not, we are their masters.
 
Jul 2, 2001 at 1:04 AM Post #11 of 27
Originally posted by Tim D
You can argue how much more time you had to evolve over your resident swamp alligator, but it'll still probably kick your ass in a swamp brawl.

Doubt it !

That gator be matching shoes , belt , and luggage

The tail is food (tastes like chicken)


Rickman
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Jul 2, 2001 at 4:49 AM Post #12 of 27
>>>>Finally, do we really have the hubris to believe that the resolution of test instruments devised in the last few decades exceeds that of human hearing acuity, refined through millions of years of evolution?

To my mind the problem with this statement is equating the purpose of evolution with the purpose of instrumentation. The first is refining "experience" and the second is refining "analysis."

>>>>>"As soon as we reflect, deliberate, and conceptualize, the original unconsciousness is lost and a thought interferes....The arrow is off the string but does not fly straight to the target, nor does the target stand where it is. Calculation, which is miscalculation, sets in...

>>>>>"Man is a thinking reed, but his great works are done when he is not calculating and thinking. 'Childlikeness' has to be restored with long years of training in self-forgetfulness." (35)

The above statements point out that experience and expression---the incoming and outgoing actions of consciousness---exists apart from objective measures. The realm of experience is completely outside the domain of objective measure. The more I learn about jazz music theory, the more I'm amazed at the fact that people untrained in music theory can make so much subjective sense and have such a strong commonality with other people of the listening experience.

Let's do a simple experiment: imagine sitting in front of a computer that has a FFT spectrum analyzer, an Oscilloscope trace, and an SPL meter running on it displaying a piece of music playing, but the speakers are turned off and you can't hear the music itself. You are now observing pretty much all of the music, just not with your hearing system. You are observing all the data, but you are not experiencing the music. Now imagine that you work long and hard listening to music and watching it at the same time. Someday, you would be able to look at the data and know what kind of music, and maybe even know what it would sound like, but I contend that even then you would not be EXPERIENCING the music. (I remember seeing a TV show one time that showed this guy who could look at the grooves n the record and tell what piece of music it was. My overwhelming thought was, "Get a life, dude!")

This experiencing of music is something quite apart from the quality of the signal. I sat at a table with a bunch of writers from SoundStage one time and asked the question, "Does the quality of reproduction affect the listeners ability to experience the art of the music?" The answer was a unanimous, but tentative, no. Unanimous because they had all been around long enough to know that Muddy Waters can be great on a piece of crap boom box; tentative because we all believed that meditation was possible on a bed of nails, but we would all rather do it in a La-Z-Boy.

I have made a practice, for years, of observing my experience of listening to music, rather than observing the music itself when doing subjective evaluations. I will often find myself choosing one device under test over another almost instantly based on how it makes me feel, only to confirm my feelings on a more conscious level after further hours of listening. This method of relaxing and letting the music come in, and then observing the quality of my experience has proved amazingly accurate.

But let me further say that this method can NOT be used alone in the process of developing an audio product. In fact, it is FAR more useful for objective measures to be used in product developement. Why? How can I say this after all the subjective blabber above? Because what we are talking about is the developement of an OBJECT and not a SUBJECT. The electronic device between me and the musician should be a clear pipe. I've heard products designed by people just by ear. Sometimes they sound okay under certain conditions, but they never perform great over a wide variety of music. I strongly believe that products should be developed first and formost by disciplined and objectively oriented design methodology. Then, once near the end of the design cycle, when the circuit is stable and well behaved, subjective listening tests can begin, and a somewhat intuitive process of tweaking can put the finish touches on the product. Even this final stage is a back and forth interplay between technologist and subjectivist observers, where, if they can work well together, they arrive at solutions in a strange dance as if dreaming half-asleep; where, after the process is over, they ask each other, "How was it again that we came to that conclusion?"

My caution in this talk is to remember that BOTH objetive measures and subjective experiences exist in the moment of listening and are not separable.

A dancer works endless hour preparing a practiced body only to loose it in the dance.

I think music is the most beautiful of mysteries. It's gift is a glimpse of finer spaces in consciousness somehow made tangible in the wiggling of air.

Put that in your 'scope and smoke it.

Cheers,

Tyll
 
Jul 2, 2001 at 5:01 AM Post #13 of 27
Whew, when Tyll turns long-winded he does it with a vengence
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Although I've never heard the aforementioned products designed by ear, I can certainly imagine.
Good points
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Jul 2, 2001 at 7:32 PM Post #14 of 27
Hehe I expected that my arguments would be picked at after doing the same to that article.

With the computer remark I had a feeling I'd get that response, and tried to avoid it using the word "number-crunching". I'm well aware of the limitations of computers, but felt like saying number crunching instead of finite iterative approximation algorithms. I've sat in a silly math course proving the incompleteness theorem using a book titled "A Friendly Introduction to Mathematical Logic" and it made me wonder what an unfriendly intro would be (I do stress the word sat). I also studied AI a little and know that Turing machines were proven to not be able to know wheter or not they are in a process towards completion or infinity before the invention of digital computers, and as such computers cannot debug themselves or ever prove mathematical formulas, yadda yadda. AI is typically just a misnomer for search algorithms utilizing databases of existing expert information.

As for swamp alligators...I guess you might manage knowing that their muscles to open thier jaws is much weaker than the muscles that close em.
 
Jul 2, 2001 at 8:13 PM Post #15 of 27
Quote:

Originally posted by Tim D
As for swamp alligators...I guess you might manage knowing that their muscles to open thier jaws is much weaker than the muscles that close em.


I found that out a little too late. Hence my nickname Lefty.
 

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