[atomicbob]

Latest observations for my comparisons between a USB DDC via Gustard U12 and EN via Dante Rednet D16 using the chains specified below. I will note that quick A/B doesn't yield much in the way of audible differences. Those differences require on the order of 10s of minutes before they become apparent. There ARE differences. Some more subtle, some less subtle.
 
Three chain comparisons to date. I may do some additional cable swapping but these comparisons are time consuming and tiring. At some point I just want to enjoy the music.
 
All chains have the same Digital beginnings and Analog endings:
 
Digital Source:
JRMC -> SRC to 96KHz 24 bit -> VST plugins including Sonarworks HD800 compensation -> Waves Nx -> Phase Reverse -> Virtual Audio Cable -> Digital T -> transport comparison chain #X below
 
Analog End:
transport comparison chain #X below -> Silver Sonic Air Matrix RCA cables -> a channel on a Zana Deux with Sophia Electric 6SL7 -> Phase Reverse -> HD800 via Draug 2 cables
 
 
Comparison #1
XMOS ASIO -> USB cable -> Gustard U12 DDC -> AES/EBU -> Mutec MC-3+ reclock -> BNC SPDIF -> Gungnir MB -> RCA out
Dante ASIO VSC -> EN cable -> Focusrite Rednet D16 -> AES/EBU -> Yggdrasil -> RCA out
 
Comparison #2
XMOS ASIO -> USB cable -> Gustard U12 DDC -> AES/EBU -> Yggdrasil -> RCA out
Dante ASIO VSC -> EN cable -> Focusrite Rednet D16 -> AES/EBU -> Mutec MC-3+ reclock -> BNC SPDIF -> Gungnir MB -> RCA out
 
Comparison #3
XMOS ASIO -> USB cable -> Gustard U12 DDC -> BNC SPDIF -> Gungnir MB -> RCA out
Dante ASIO VSC -> EN cable -> Focusrite Rednet D16 -> AES/EBU -> Mutec MC-3+ reclock -> AES/EBU -> Yggdrasil -> RCA out
 
I won't wax poetic on the differences. That is not one of my fortes. I will summarize that when a difference was audible to me, it was more of better focus, greater clarity, less fuzzy, more dimensional type of experience. I also felt a deeper emotional connection to the music on the preferred chain in the comparison.
 
Comparison #1: nearly equal to my auditory perception. Very hard for me to discern a difference. Note that both chains have galvanic isolation from the physical source.
 
Comparison #2: Dante chain preferred. Note this is a preference of GuMB over Yggdrasil which I attribute to the differences in the transport chain.
 
Comparison #3: Dante chain most definitely preferred. The Yggdrasil over the GuMB as one would expect, but by a larger preference than the same two with native USB.
 
These are my observations and preferences. As always YMMV.

 

[johnjen]

Originally Posted by atomicbob /img/forum/go_quote.gif
snip
 
@johnjen  Did you ever get the firmware updates hang resolved? My D16 keeps wanting a firmware update that hangs after a few bars. Gave it 30 minutes and noticed no activity found through task manager so I've killed it every time. Device works just fine so I have this annoying update request at each startup which I cancel until the solution for successful update is learned.
 
snip

I did get it running and am listening even as I type this. 

It will take more break-in to reach its peak but thus far it is running at or a bit ahead of my 2-Wyrd setup in terms of SQ.
 
I expect it will improve as it accumulates a few more hours.
And of course a few tweaks from me…

 
"My D16 keeps wanting a firmware update that hangs after a few bars. Gave it 30 minutes and noticed no activity found through task manager so I've killed it every time. Device works just fine so I have this annoying update request at each startup which I cancel until the solution for successful update is learned."
 
This is exactly what my RN3 is doing. I have to force quit it to release the 'frozen app'.
According to Focusrite they are puzzled about this.
I will add your experience to my next email to them.
 
I also found out that my RN3 has already been updated, so this 2nd firmware update is unnecessary.
I have even tried the manual update method with the same results as the 'automatic' version (when it asks if I want to update right after startup of the app) with the big 'Freeze' happening the same way.
 
JJ

 

[johnjen]

  You need a SPDIF cable? I have many in my lab. They are BNC to BNC Canare 75 ohm high end video cable with 75 ohm BNC to RCA adapters at each end. Let me know the length and I'll get you one. 

Thanks for the offer!
1.5 meters seems the 'ideal' length according to those who pay attention to signal reflections and such.
And like your D16 my RN3 uses rca connectors instead of BNC which puzzles me since this is supposed to be pro audio gear.
But I digress…

 
I want to try several different SPDIF cables and compare them to each other and to AES/EBU via the breakout DB25.
 
Right now I'm using Curbfeelers Oyaide cable and it does sound quite nice.
I am curious how well AES/EBU will fare. 
I have always thought that it should be a superior hardware implementation to any of the rest of the digital audio formats.
Well except for perhaps ethernet, which seems to be making some headway.
 
I just might spring for one of these, especially with the US to Can $ exchange rates right now.
http://audiosensibility.com/blog/store-backup/#!/Statement-SE-Silver-S-PDIF-RCA-BNC-Digital-Cable/p/46391588
 
It has all the tweako™ approved touches and is FULLY buzzword compliant to boot. 

 
rb2013 suggested it was a bargain and held it's own against some of the big$$$ cables.
 
But I'm really hoping that AES/EBU will walk away with the 1st place award…
 
JJ

 

[Soundsgoodtome]

http://www.head-fi.org/t/811713/rednet-and-aes67/0_30#post_12662145


New Rednet thread gents, the old one got locked due to one USB cleaner maker getting it locked - coincidence maybe

 

[Muziqboy]

That USB cleaner maker is trying his best to prevent the Dante AOIP from taking off.
I have no doubt that he will be infiltrating that new thread also.

 

[Muziqboy]

  Thanks for the offer!
1.5 meters seems the 'ideal' length according to those who pay attention to signal reflections and such.
And like your D16 my RN3 use rca connectors instead of BNC which puzzles me since this is supposed to be pro audio gear.
But I digress…

 
I want to try several different SPDIF cables and compare them to each other and to AES/EBU via the breakout DB25.
 
Right now I'm using Curbfeelers Oyaide cable and it does sound quite nice.
I am curious how well AES/EBU will fare. 
I have always thought that it should be a superior hardware implementation to any of the rest of the digital audio formats.
Well except for perhaps ethernet, which seems to be making some headway.
 
I just might spring for one of these, especially with the US to Can $ exchange rates right now.
http://audiosensibility.com/blog/store-backup/#!/Statement-SE-Silver-S-PDIF-RCA-BNC-Digital-Cable/p/46391588
 
It has all the tweako™ approved touches and is FULLY buzzword compliant to boot. 

 
rb2013 suggested it was a bargain and held it's own against some of the big$$$ cables.
 
But I'm really hoping that AES/EBU will walk away with the 1st place award…
 
JJ

 
+1 on the Audio Sensiblity Statement cables. I have 3 of these hooked up to my RedNet 3 and daisy chained Mutec-MC3+
 
It already sounds phenomenal out of SPDIF coax.
I'm not sure if the AES/EBU connection will be that much better but like they always say here. YMMV

 

[johnjen]

Ok so Muziqboy how long did it take for your RN3 box to 'blossom'?
 
It's been on since like 1pm and now, 12 hrs later, it starting to reveal completely new acoustic nuances, as in another CP has been removed, as in I'm hearing my music as if new, again,
again.
 
And I figure it'll take some time to come into full focus…
 
Oh, and did you get your SPDIF cables cooked?
 
If not, that too is on my list (I have an Audio Dharma cooker) and I would surmise that it will help, a bunch.
 
JJ 

 

 

[Muziqboy]

The 1st day I got it, I was only able to listen for about 4 hrs. The following day another 4 hrs. then the Mutec showed up and I immediately hooked it up to the RN3 which bumped the SQ up.
So I was not able to notice any blossoming as I did not took the Mutec out of the chain since I really liked what it added to the SQ.
 
I just bought the un-cooked cables and just let it accumulate some burn-in time in the chain.

 

[atomicbob]

  I did get it running and am listening even as I type this. 

It will take more break-in to reach its peak but thus far it is running at or a bit ahead of my 2-Wyrd setup in terms of SQ.
 
I expect it will improve as it accumulates a few more hours.
And of course a few tweaks from me…

 
"My D16 keeps wanting a firmware update that hangs after a few bars. Gave it 30 minutes and noticed no activity found through task manager so I've killed it every time. Device works just fine so I have this annoying update request at each startup which I cancel until the solution for successful update is learned."
 
This is exactly what my RN3 is doing. I have to force quit it to release the 'frozen app'.
According to Focusrite they are puzzled about this.
I will add your experience to my next email to them.
 
I also found out that my RN3 has already been updated, so this 2nd firmware update is unnecessary.
I have even tried the manual update method with the same results as the 'automatic' version (when it asks if I want to update right after startup of the app) with the big 'Freeze' happening the same way.
 
JJ

I have screenshots captured showing this issue. It doesn't stop me from enjoying the Rednet D16, just one annoying click when starting Rednet Control. Fortunately once configured RC isn't used very often.

 

 
I'd appreciate hearing any comments you receive from Focusrite.

 

[atomicbob]

   
+1 on the Audio Sensiblity Statement cables. I have 3 of these hooked up to my RedNet 3 and daisy chained Mutec-MC3+
 
It already sounds phenomenal out of SPDIF coax.
I'm not sure if the AES/EBU connection will be that much better but like they always say here. YMMV

However, if the AES/EBU connection could provide similar level of perceived sound quality with lower cost cables that would be a net win for others wanting to enjoy the AOIP benefits with lower capital investment.

 

[Muziqboy]

  However, if the AES/EBU connection could provide similar level of perceived sound quality with lower cost cables that would be a net win for others wanting to enjoy the AOIP benefits with lower capital investment.

 
Very much agree on that point Bob. Do you have the Mutec MC-3+ without the USB and using it as a SPDIF reclocker?
I got 2 of these and doing daisy chained reclocking and experienced another SQ jump with the 2nd reclock.
Andrew heard the SQ jump with the daisy chained reclock vs. just straight out of RedNet 3 during the meet yesterday in Bellingham.

 

[atomicbob]

   
Very much agree on that point Bob. Do you have the Mutec MC-3+ without the USB and using it as a SPDIF reclocker?
I got 2 of these and doing daisy chained reclocking and experienced another SQ jump with the 2nd reclock.
Andrew heard the SQ jump with the daisy chained reclock vs. just straight out of RedNet 3 during the meet yesterday in Bellingham.

Yes, I have the non-USB version. If I had known of the clock difference between the two MC-3+ I would have opted to spend the extra $200. I am using it for format conversion and reclocking. The MC-3+ is well worth the asking price. However, so is the Rednet D16, to me for the multiple AES ports and EN physical / Dante logical transport.

 

[johnjen]

So a 'progress' report on the break in of my RN3.
 
At 12hrs the SQ was at or near a peak, as in greater detail, better focus and details.
Now at 36hrs the SQ has fallen off it's previous peak and now my 2-Wyrd setup is 'Better'.
 
This is a usual pattern.
What is unusual about it is that the amount of time to reach the 1st peak and the subsequent timing of when the SQ swings into 'poor' performance, was longer than I have seen in the past.
 
For instance the very bottom of the bass has 'dried up' a tad, the rich TUBZ harmonic structure of each 'voice' has gone 'flat' or lost its dimensionality (2d vs 3d).
The acoustic dynamics that force my head to dance on my shoulders have been muted just a touch as well.
This is like the system is out of focus.
 
Now I fully expect that this will follow previous break-in swings in SQ and head back to that peak (only moar of it) but I'm glad I have a 'reference' from which I can easily compare these 2 signal paths from computer to dac, back to back (≈15 sec switch overs).
 
And make no mistake the overall SQ is stellar using either signal path.
These 'differences' are subtle and only really apparent by direct comparison.
 
IOW if I only had one or the other they both would be WAY more than acceptable.
And I do expect the RN3 to surpass my 2-Wyrd setup, especially after I tweak a few CP's…

It's just a matter of when…
 
JJ

 

[johnjen]

IT'S BAAAAAAACK!  

 
Ok so 24hrs later and the RN3 has caught up and is surpassing my 2-Wyrd setup by just about every term I use to determine 'Better'.
And I can tell it still has a ways to go yet to reach its peak SQ performance.
 
So far it has 'Better' C3 (cohesion, coherence, coupling) of the entire acoustic presentation (all 'voices', and the acoustic 'space'), and tLFF is improved as well.
There is also better focus and inner detail, but these (and much else) are still morphing and it's hard to tell where they will wind up.
But my head is back to dancing on my shoulders.
 
AND
I just ordered enough parts to make 2) DB-25 to XLR AES cables using 2 different types of wire each.
This is using pro audio spec wire and connectors with a bit better DB25 connectors.
 
So each breakout cable has 2 active channels using Mogami and Canare 110Ω balanced single channel wire.
This will make it easy to compare these 2 wires with each other.
It will also make it easy to use other wire and compare true 110Ω hi-freq rated wire with other 'audio' quality wire.
 
AND
I found that post that had the link to that (low cost) ethernet - optical - ethernet setp,
Thanks to Benny-x for pointing it out.
 
https://www.amazon.com/MC210CS-Converter-1000Mbps-single-mode-mountable/dp/B003CFATKQ/ref=pd_sim_147_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=41qk8BqXG-L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL320_SR296%2C320_&refRID=12C6D7XNKRR3EHNGTCBE
 
For under $200 it's a complete galvanic isolation between (noisy) computer and RNx device of your choice…
 
Here is the link to the post by kelowna (which also includes a link to a 'better' PS for the converter(s)…
http://www.head-fi.org/t/806827/audio-over-ip-rednet-3-16-review-aes67-sets-a-new-standard-for-computer-audio/285#post_12656916
 
Interesting times in Audio indeed!
 
JJ

 

[jelt2359]

I've been using this optical isolation for a while. The results are immediate and obvious. I've heard it benefits best from a better ps at the Rednet/ rendu/ non-computer side, where I personally use an IfI ipower.