[tdockweiler]

  I agree that we should let tdock speak his mind but I also share MLE's skepticism. tdock has been known to say things that don't make sense (he loved the HD580 but hated the HD600, loves his HD650 but hated the 2 he listened to previously, etc). Either his impressions are very subjective and change frequently or he is hearing absolutely minute things that 99% of listeners don't hear. In either case I consider his impressions to be somewhat unhelpful for those researching the models he reviews. I think its perfectly fair to point that out while still letting him do it. Lets all calm down and move on.

 
On the way out the door, but I don't really hate the HD-600

I have a love/hate thing with it just like the K702. At one point I had both the 650, 580 and 600. The 580 grill makes some subtle changes.

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

I don't question everyone who says they are different. The level of difference however, you're the only one out of those who have tried both that has made it sound like it's night and day. Those who have been far more consistent with impressions have stated if you love one, you'll love the other, and that it's more subtleties than a clear difference.


But for you, you take minute differences and turn them into night and day. Like your bass mod. I've been hearing about it subtly changing the sound, but you make it sound like it's a drastic difference and that there are no tradeoffs.

I have not heard your mod nor have I heard the K712. That much is true. However, I stand by those with consistent impressions that I have agreed with basically for years when they tell me things.

I have heard from them that the K712 pro is better than the Annie. I won't even QUESTION that. I fully believe them. However, in their saying this, they still mention that it's not a large difference, and if you didn't have both on hand, it wouldn't be easy to spot the differences. I believe this, as it sounds far more logical, than these drastic impressions of yours.

We're not dismissing your opinions. We're questioning them, is all.

I still value your impressions, actually. I'm just more cautious.

 

[Salvatore]

  Grow up..seriously.
  I love how you say the K712 and Annie can't really be any different yet you probably haven't tried the K712. Good job!

 
I apologize, that was indeed immature of me. And you're right I haven't tried the K712. Like I said my opinion is based on what I've read here and other places. Hopefully I get to test K712 next month at hifiexpo.

 

[tdockweiler]

Of course everyone hears differently. Tdock is entitled his opinions. My problem is that his opinions are all over the place half the time, and they change on a daily basis.

If he doesn't like the Annie, that's fine. But his impressions of the 'Annie' and the K712 are as if they're completely different headphones, which by admission of quite a few others who have owned both headphones, are stated to be very similar to the point that you might not be able to really tell the difference if you didn't have them on hand to compare directly. So for him to not like the Annie, and then LOOOOVE the K712... well, come on now, who wouldn't question this? It sounds like utter hyperbole.

This is where I question his impressions.

You're free to choose whatever you want to believe. All I'm saying is, it's questionable here.

I choose to believe someone I have agreed with on many, many different occasions, and who has been quite consistent with their impressions. Tdock has 'moods' where one day a headphone will sound like crap, and then the next day, it's a revelation. I can't trust an impression of someone that swings so wildly.

No need to get your panties in a bunch.

 
Give me an example of where my opinion changes on a daily basis. Like I said before your brain is coming up with things that are not really true. I've disliked the Q701 Annie from day one and have given it a very fair chance. Dozens of hours. I'll admit my random opinions are somewhat messy and "all over the place" but I don't care. The only example of my opinion changing is when I had the Asgard 2. I had major issues with that thing and returned it. Could have been a lemon but maybe not.
 
Again, there is your brain coming up with stuff.. the Annie and K712 are not a "night and day" difference. They're not total opposites despite what you may have thought I said. Don't put words in my mouth. I don't like the Annie but it's not terrible. Maybe you can go read my review. You'll see it's not a 1/5 star review.
 
I'll tell everyone again WHY I probably like the K712 more than the (Q701) Annie:
 
- The pads are different. The K712 pads don't go flat and my ears never touch the insides. Why would AKG change them? Guess. This is perhaps why I don't get a dark, muffled, congested sound. Any change in pads can majorly alter the sound of an AKG headphone.
- It's possible the REAL Annie is 100% NOT a Q701 + Annie pads. I now think I'm correct. The K702 and Q701 sound much different. My guess is that the REAL Annie and the K712 are hand selected, better measuring K702 drivers. So basically the best K702 you can get + the redesign and extras.
 
When I took off the pads off the K712 and used Q701 pads it sounded like my old K702. I said all along that the Annie pads would probably sound best on a K702.
 
When I use a K702/K601 grill and no foam on my Q701 I absolutely cannot get it to sound like a K702. Close!
 
There IS a chance that I would like the Annie pads on the K712 or K702 and they could still sound bad on the Q701. The Annie pads work best on headphones with a lot of treble. The Q701 is not a headphone with lots of treble (to me).
 
It IS entirely possible my Q701 is darker/warmer than some other pairs out there and does not play well with Annie pads. At one point I even tried to tune it's sound to be less warm/congested with Annie pads. That didn't work out. I didn't even like Q701 + Annie pads with the K601/K702 grill and no foam.
 
So basically if people want to criticize me for saying the Q701 "Annie" is no good and different than the K712 then that's perfectly OK. Two people compared the Real Annie vs Q701 + Annie pads so I assumed they were the same like they said and maybe this is really not the case at all. I guess another problem is that not all Q701s are the same. Maybe some work well with Annie pads and some don't.

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

I'm not gonna go back and sift through crap just to find more of your impressions. But you've done it various times. I distinctly remember you saying something like the HD600 having more midbass than the 650, IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong. You're the ONLY person I've ever seen say something like this.

That's just one example of your impressions that are at odds with the general consensus.

Again, you're free to write your impressions.

 

[tdockweiler]

I don't question everyone who says they are different. The level of difference however, you're the only one out of those who have tried both that has made it sound like it's night and day. Those who have been far more consistent with impressions have stated if you love one, you'll love the other, and that it's more subtleties than a clear difference.


But for you, you take minute differences and turn them into night and day. Like your bass mod. I've been hearing about it subtly changing the sound, but you make it sound like it's a drastic difference and that there are no tradeoffs.

I have not heard your mod nor have I heard the K712. That much is true. However, I stand by those with consistent impressions that I have agreed with basically for years when they tell me things.

I have heard from them that the K712 pro is better than the Annie. I won't even QUESTION that. I fully believe them. However, in their saying this, they still mention that it's not a large difference, and if you didn't have both on hand, it wouldn't be easy to spot the differences. I believe this, as it sounds far more logical, than these drastic impressions of yours.

We're not dismissing your opinions. We're questioning them, is all.

I still value your impressions, actually. I'm just more cautious.

 
Haha, I hyped up the Q701 mod just for fun and to get people to try it. Actually the only way I did this was by joking that it made it about 25% better than an HD-800

 
Come on, don't tell me you haven't hyped things up before. You do it all the time without even trying!
 
If you read every single word I posted about the mod I never made it out to be night and day. Even today I said that if you liked the stock Q701 you will like the modded Q701. It actually makes it even MORE neutral. It's not dramatically different.
There is no extra bass or warmth unless it's supposed to be there in the recording. Just like the K712. The K712 and modded Q701 don't magically make ALL my songs bassier. They're too accurate. The Q701 mod is easily the most impressive mod i've ever heard.
It really makes zero sense as to why it doesn't screw up the rest of the signature. Just check the Q701 forum and there are zero trade-offs to most people.
 
It doesn't make it bass heavy at all. My impressions of the mod are spot on with the general consensus basically. There are a few other slight changes i've heard that might not be there for everyone. My general rule is to try not to post things I think I MIGHT have heard unless I'm absolutely sure it's there.
 
You would really need to try the Q701 mod. I bet you would love it. Find a used Q701 and do it!
 
My impressions of the Q701 are not really off the general consensus at all. I think your impressions of the Q701 are not much different than mine. I don't know why impressions of the K712 seem to vary more between people. I can't wait to see the general consensus. That usually takes about a year. Almost NONE of my headphones are radically different sounding than the general consensus of how it sounds. The HD-650 is just a little.
 
Honestly I take all headphone reviews with a grain of salt. I do trust many people's opinions here, but would never buy a headphone based on just one person's impressions. There are rare times when I read a review and I agree with every single tiny thing, but that almost never happens! Sometimes it's like we must have the same hearing.

 

[tdockweiler]

I'm not gonna go back and sift through crap just to find more of your impressions. But you've done it various times. I distinctly remember you saying something like the HD600 having more midbass than the 650, IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong. You're the ONLY person I've ever seen say something like this.

That's just one example of your impressions that are at odds with the general consensus.

Again, you're free to write your impressions.

 
I think that's the only headphone I own that's a LITTLE off the general consensus. What's the big deal? I don't get this. When you read impressions it's important to not make the differences out to be bigger than they really are. I should put the words "slightly" in huge bold fonts.
I had the HD-650 more than any other headphone and maybe 4 times. I spent more money on getting that to sound good and it was always too dark and had a mid-bass hump that stuck out way too much.
I bought a pair in 2012 and loved it. No gear changes. I don't know why it sounds any different and I haven't adapted to slightly darker/warmer sounding headphones. I would say it's perfectly flat with some slightly rolled off treble.
This one even has a nice soundstage and not too closed in at all. I wouldn't say it's very airy, but still good. I love it for female vocals. Oh and I don't hear any majorly recessed upper mids.
It does sound warm though and very full sounding. It's a little more forgiving and smoother than my stock Q701. I don't really call it a forgiving headphone though.
 
I was so impressed with the HD-650 that I went out and bought a used HD-580 and later an HD-600. I'm a little abnormal because I can prefer a headphone even if it's 5% better in sound. For me that 5% is enough for me to like the HD-580 over the 600. Not night and day.
I'm extremely picky to be honest. I nit-pick over little details and not everyone likes this.
 
My 650 has slightly more extended low bass. There seems to be a little more mid-bass on my HD-600 but not a huge difference. My HD-650 doesn't sound like it has any mid-bass hump at all. Maybe it's just better controlled than the HD-600.
 
I will admit that at one point I did prefer my HD-598 to the OLD HD-650s I heard before.
 
Well anyway, I hope you get to try the K712 sometime or at least the bass modded Q701. I bet you will like them as much as me

 
If I was made out of money i'd go out and buy a REAL Annie for testing. She's too expensive though.

 

[tdockweiler]

Here's my old Annie review:
http://www.head-fi.org/products/akg-k702-65th-anniversary-edition/reviews/9127
 
Night and day difference huh? NO.
When I say I don't like the Annie it's because I'm picky about the sound signature.
 
I think for me the K712 has more treble and upper mids than the Q701 "Annie".
 
Now it's still very well possible the Annie is still Q701 + Annie pads, but I'll leave that up to you. Again, two people had both and said they're the same. One of them even had my Q701 + Annie pads AND the real Annie.
 
Based on memory here's the differences:
 
K712 is more airy, clear, open and with more treble. The soundstage of the K712 is close to being as good as the Q701.
The upper mids have returned for me.
The low mids seemed perhaps fuller on the Annie, but...
The sound on the Annie is even more forward, closed in, slightly more muffled and congested.
 
That Annie score is a bit high. I actually was a bit too easy on it. Never hated it, but needed  improvements.
 
I would say the primary reasons I didn't love the Annie were:
 
1 - Low mids slightly too forward
2 - Closed in sounding, kind of congested sounding for me
3 - Not enough treble and upper mids
 
Again, my money is on the pads fixing some things. Even my Q701 sounds better with K712 pads compared to Annie pads.
 
K712 definitely deserves all the positive reviews. Too bad not many have both the Annie and K712.
 
Can't say it enough but I think there are obvious reasons why AKG changed their memory foam pads. Probably not a very good match for some heads/ears...like perhaps mine.

 

[davisman]

How can you review a product, when you havent actually sampled the product?
 
I have tried for the past 5 minutes to type that without being condescending. Even if the difference is .001%, there is a difference that you cannot quantify and remain reliable.

 

[tdockweiler]

  How can you review a product, when you havent actually sampled the product?
 
I have tried for the past 5 minutes to type that without being condescending. Even if the difference is .001%, there is a difference that you cannot quantify and remain reliable.

 
Probably because everyone else in the world says they're 99.1% the same. Two people had both the Q701 + Annie pads and the Real Annie at the same time. Even my Q701.
I trusted their opinions more than they probably trusted mine

 
For months it was like ... "yeah get the Q701 + Annie pads! Same exact thing..save your money"!
 
So there is no way to confirm if they're wrong or right. We can just all guess.
 
I would like to hear the REAL annie but I doubt I would find it much different. Really I don't. The Annie pads gave me similar results on my K400s. Less treble, fuller mids and more congested sound.
 
If the real Annie was 99% identical in sound to the K712 it'd be hilarious. This is virtually IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[Change is Good]

I'm with MLE on this issue, but we are arguing with a brick wall.
 
Let us move on, please...

 

[tdockweiler]

  I'm with MLE on this issue, but we are arguing with a brick wall.
 
Let us move on, please...

 
Have you reviewed the K712 Pro? Maybe you can actually do this for us instead of trolling me. Tell us all how you hear it.
The more impressions the better.
 
Maybe you're all hearing it on warmer/darker gear than I am. I doubt that's enough to cause such a huge difference in impressions.
 
There is actually not many people that own the K712 Pro yet...
 
Hopefully more impressions soon and less whiners.

 

[Change is Good]

I'm trolling you? Smh...
 
You really don't take criticism very well. I can only imagine how you'd react to someone who was actually trolling you...
 

 

[spittis]

Haven't really read your arguments in the last pages, but I ordered the K712 a few hours ago so I'll have something to say, probably next week.

 

[tdockweiler]

  I'm trolling you? Why would I say "Let us move on, please..."
 
You really don't take criticism very well. I can only imagine how you'd react to someone who was actually trolling you...
 
 

 
I don't mind criticism. Do you see me getting angry about anything here? None of it bothers me, but you're a bit annoying. I'm talking normally and replying to every post. What do you want from me?
I was thinking you're just upset that I didn't hear the K712 Pro like you? I'm sorry that it's not bassy and dark for me.
 
I actually don't even know what you were complaining about this whole time. Not that it matters.
 
Instead of saying garbage like "we're talking to a brick wall" you should have left and found something else to do. That's my idea of moving on. I should have done that too instead of posting this nonsense.
 
I'm not going to reply to any more of your posts.