[Mad Lust Envy]

His impressions for the Annie and K712 are night and day, while everyone else who has compared them have stated that they sound very, very similar sans a few key differences.

I won't go into him not even trying a real pair of Annies, but just buying pads for his Q701. I distinctly remember telling him that even though I compare HIS Q701 with MY Annie, swapping the pads did not make them identical. His Q701 with Annie pads were a little thinner sounding and brighter than my Annie with stock pads. Not saying the drivers or sound were different, but the slight driver variation made his Q701 not sound identical to my Annies. Like 99%, not 99.9%. Still, it's within the realm of being the same sound, which is why I said the Q701+Annie pads, will essentially make an Annie.

But shifting back on topic, I'm more inclined to believe Chico who has been almost always consistent with his impressions and how I've personally heard the same headphones he has. When he says the Annie and K712 sound very close to one another, I'm gonna be inclined to believe him. That sounds more realistic than the impressions Tdock is putting out.

Again, I'm not saying not to trust tdock or his impressions (I have yet to hear the K712, so i can't say, nor do I have the Annie to make a valid comparison), I'm just saying...he tends to go against what everyone else says when it comes to a headphone's sound more often than not. That and his 'moods' where a headphone's sound will magically change one day to the next, and then back. He's a bit inconsistent for me, personally.

I don't ALWAYS disagree with him. Just sometimes.

 

[tdockweiler]

His impressions for the Annie and K712 are night and day, while everyone else who has compared them have stated that they sound very, very similar sans a few key differences.

I won't go into him not even trying a real pair of Annies, but just buying pads for his Q701. I distinctly remember telling him that even though I compare HIS Q701 with MY Annie, swapping the pads did not make them identical. His Q701 with Annie pads were a little thinner sounding and brighter than my Annie with stock pads. Not saying the drivers or sound were different, but the slight driver variation made his Q701 not sound identical to my Annies. Like 99%, not 99.9%. Still, it's within the realm of being the same sound, which is why I said the Q701+Annie pads, will essentially make an Annie.

But shifting back on topic, I'm more inclined to believe Chico who has been almost always consistent with his impressions and how I've personally heard the same headphones he has. When he says the Annie and K712 sound very close to one another, I'm gonna be inclined to believe him. That sounds more realistic than the impressions Tdock is putting out.

Again, I'm not saying not to trust tdock or his impressions (I have yet to hear the K712, so i can't say, nor do I have the Annie to make a valid comparison), I'm just saying...he tends to go against what everyone else says when it comes to a headphone's sound more often than not. That and his 'moods' where a headphone's sound will magically change one day to the next, and then back. He's a bit inconsistent for me, personally.

I don't ALWAYS disagree with him. Just sometimes.

 
You're funny! Now you seem to fault me for "not even trying a real pair of annies". As if 99% vs 99.9% wasn't identical. Honestly from day one I really did take this idea that the Q701 + Annie pads was a clone of the Annie with a grain of salt. Two people have said they're identical and I trusted them (you included). Maybe they were wrong. I don't know. Heck maybe it was wrong for me to even do that.
 
Some Q701s just might not work out well with Annie pads at all and sound noticeably worse than the real Annie.
 
Annie vs K712 Pro isn't like night and day really as it sounds. Annie sounded perhaps slightly bassier, fuller in the mids and darker than the K712 Pro. All the air seemed sucked out of it and the soundstage was really compressed. It sounded really congested to me. Same gear. Again maybe the Annie + Q701 isn't the same like we all thought.
 
I think one reason the Annie sounded worse for me is that the pads went flat and the tips of my ears were touching something inside. I have no such issues with the K712 Pro. Maybe the Q701 itself has more clamp than the K712? It does make sense now why the K712 sounds better. I think it's the deeper pads that are less likely to go flat.
 
Someone just said i've adapted to the warmer modded Q701 and that's possibly why I like the K712 Pro. Nonsense. I would have liked it without even having heard the Q701. There is nothing really to adjust to at all. You would just have to listen to the modded Q701. It's not that dramatically different than stock. Fuller mids and a little more low-bass.
 
MLE I think you're coming up with a bunch of non-sense about me in your brain that's not true. None of my impressions have ever changed between days. I've always disliked the Annie and that has never changed. The only time my impressions change is if I get a a different sounding pair of the same headphones years later. There are some HD-650s that don't have a mid-bass hump and are not too dark. The only headphone impression that's a little different is that of the HD-650. I think my impression of the Q701 is pretty much the same general consensus. Same with all my other headphones.
 
I bet there is a LOT of people here with very transparent setups that don't think it's dark at all. I won't be surprised. On different gear it's definitely going to sound a little different. I think NA_BLUR has a Headroom (BUDA) amp and a very very transparent DAC so I bet his sounds as good as this K712 Pro, if not even better. If you hear impressions from someone with an O2/ODAC/Modi they're more likely to be similar to mine perhaps. I kind of consider the Headroom Micro + Astrodyne like an O2 on steroids. It's a little smoother though in the treble.
 
Well, let's just see what the general consensus is on the K712 Pro years from now. I doubt many will call it dark, very warm or bassy. I find it very accurate and not too colored at all. To my ears it's definitely not darker than my HD-650. Heck I don't even hear any mid-bass hump on the K12 Pro which is a huge plus.

 

[tdockweiler]

Why do you think AKG changed the pad design between the Annie and K712 Pro?
The K712 Pads are deeper and SEEM to not go as flat.
 
My idea is that the Annie pads would often go flat for many people and possibly degrade the sound.
Making it seem worse than they should be. My ears would also touch something inside the Annie pads.
 
This is probably not the case, but it's possible.
 
My guess is that with the K712 Pro my ears are further away from the driver than with the Annie and that's why I get an impression of more treble than the Annie.
You do get more treble when there is more air inside the pads and between your ear hole and the driver.
You can test this when you compare the K601 vs Q701 pads.
 
So my guess is that for ME the K712 are more similar to Q701 pads when it comes to treble.
People with more clamp or bigger ears would have the K712 Pro sound possibly darker/warm or bassier.
 
I do believe the same reason I don't K601 pads on the Q701 is why I don't like Annie pads on the Q701. They give ME similar symptoms. I'm not really talking about bass in this K601 example.
 
With K601 flat pads on the Q701 you get a slightly darker and more congested sound. Not as clear and with less bass and treble(!). Yet everything often sounds more forward.
 
Q701 pads bring back the nice soundstage and give you more bass and treble. The bass is mostly due to the harder foam in the Q701 pads I think.
 
So K712 pads are kind of like bassier Q701 pads for ME. They give me less of that congested/dark sound. Perhaps due to more air in the pads and between my ear and driver.
 
Since they are more comfortable and go flat less, this makes them even better.
 
I'm not sure if everyone knows this, but with all the AKGs the pads have the biggest effect on the sound.
 
After I tried Annie I thought they could sort of re-create the Q701 pads and make them slightly bassier but still retain that nice treble and soundstage.
It looks like for me they did that with K712 pads. I bet even the insides of them are slightly different than Annie pads. FYI the Annie pads have a thick hard foam inside. It's not memory foam but even harder foam. A round flat strip inside.
 
AKG definitely knows what they're doing!

 

[darrenyeats]

This is going to be a friendly rant!
 
Head-fi is the worst for people giving opinions on stuff they haven't heard.
 
I contributed to an Abyss thread where in less than two pages three people who had heard them gave feedback. This is unusual for head-fi. It was locked because "there weren't enough owners".
 
Then I went to the "proper Abyss" thread where there was feedback from three people who heard the blessed things in the first TWENTY PAGES. What a joke! The rest of it was filled with he said/she said/they must be X/I'm outraged etc from people who've never even heard the headphones in question. Go figure.
 
People who HAVE heard gear have different impressions of the same gear. Not everyone hears things the same way. I accept this, I live with this, but still I'd rather read about the impressions of one person who has actually heard X or compared X with Y than twenty people theorising or criticising without trying themselves.
 
Can you guys see where I'm coming from?
 
Friendly rant over.
 
Thank you tdockweiler. I appreciate your impressions as what you intended them to be, one person's view, and I await listening impressions from others.

 

[tdockweiler]

On day two and the K712 still sounds as good as before. Actually it probably sounds even better 

  I should stop listening to it so I can actually do some work. It's really addicting. Need to focus on work dang it!
Amazingly good recordings (which are rare) sound POSSIBLY slightly better on the K712 Pro. Mainly it's that they sound a little clearer. It's not really about the bit-rate at all.
 
If my music collection was loaded with HD tracks and I had $1000+ ultra revealing gear then I'd probably take the K712 Pro without any doubt, even at $400.
I could be hearing things when these very good recordings sound better. They just sound a bit more clear. The extra clearness can wow me a little bit.
Not even sure what causes it. Again, these tracks are very rare. Imogen Heap has some stuff that sounds amazing on the K712 Pro.
 
It could be that the K712 driver is a higher quality driver than the Q701. Probably hand picked good ones that measure better. Or not.
 
You know what would be interesting?
 
Measurements of the K712 memory foam pads that are harder (before use or that have been in the cold air) vs after being used for more than an hour and that have warmed up.
I bet there would be some difference but most likely not audible by humans.
 
I still think bright/harsh Jpop sounds slightly smoother on the modded Q701

 
 
EDIT: I will probably buy a K712 Pro when it hits $300 or $325. Not now since I have higher priorities. The Q701 will never ever be sold though. Guaranteed.
 
EDIT2: I tried Q701 pads on the K712 PRO and it sounds closer to a K702 than a Q701. Probably because it's grill is much more open. I don't really like it AS much with Q701 pads. Q701/K702 pads seem to be a better match for the Q701. The K712 Pro with Q701 pads definitely sounds more airy/spacious than the stock Q701 based on memory. The Q701 always sounded a little more closed in than the K702 (but not in a bad way). The Q701 sound just feels more filled in and closer, if that makes sense.
 
 
In case anyone didn't get a clue, the Q701 stock does not sound like a K712. Not even going there. Obviously some similarities.
 
I bet you that if I had a stock K712 Pro vs Q701 with K712 pads i'd prefer the K712 PRO. I think I said this a very long time ago.

 

[JWahl]

  On day two and the K712 still sounds as good as before. Actually it probably sounds even better 

  I should stop listening to it so I can actually do some work. It's really addicting. Need to focus on work dang it!
Amazingly good recordings (which are rare) sound POSSIBLY slightly better on the K712 Pro. Mainly it's that they sound a little clearer. It's not really about the bit-rate at all.
 
If my music collection was loaded with HD tracks and I had $1000+ ultra revealing gear then I'd probably take the K712 Pro without any doubt, even at $400.
I could be hearing things when these very good recordings sound better. They just sound a bit more clear. The extra clearness can wow me a little bit.
Not even sure what causes it. Again, these tracks are very rare. Imogen Heap has some stuff that sounds amazing on the K712 Pro.
 
It could be that the K712 driver is a higher quality driver than the Q701. Probably hand picked good ones that measure better. Or not.
 
You know what would be interesting?
 
Measurements of the K712 memory foam pads that are harder (before use or that have been in the cold air) vs after being used for more than an hour and that have warmed up.
I bet there would be some difference but most likely not audible by humans.
 
I still think bright/harsh Jpop sounds slightly smoother on the modded Q701

 
 
EDIT: I will probably buy a K712 Pro when it hits $300 or $325. Not now since I have higher priorities. The Q701 will never ever be sold though. Guaranteed.

I share your sentiments.  I really need to listen to the HD800 as a sanity check because as it stands right now, I'm actually beginning to enjoy my music more than I did with my HD800.  Of course the HD800 is more technically impressive but there is something about the top to bottom tonal balance and soundstage presentation of the K712 that I'm really enjoying.

 

[Evshrug]

That bass mod on Q701 must be some hell of a tuning.. Like "Dr. Dre medicine" kind of change. Those Q701 I've heard on the same setup I am listening to K712 Pro were nowhere near to the K712 Pro amount of bass. They had even less bass than my HD800. I would call them bass shy... Even coming from the HD800s.

There have been a number of pages of postings lately on the Q701 thread about the mod, and several people posting impressions to make an average about what/how much changes with the mod. It's a little more grey if/what happens negative, you get a few people with no downsides and even fewer saying with the extra bass excitement and slightly more forward/revealed mids the sound could get a little more fatiguing after a while.

Thanks tdockweiler for the impressions! Some of your words like shown above have motivated me to purchase the K712 and give it a try~~ :tongue_smile:

Yeah, read TitaniteExtreme's post and selected quotes from tdock, those bits seem to encapsulate what tdock's impressions of the K712 Pro are: favorable/addictive, sounding slightly warmer than the Q701 (bass, mids) while also slightly smoother in presentation, while not losing treble extension so much to sound like a darker headphone.

The last few pages in reaction to tdock (not his K712 experience) are classic head-fi. From a 3rd party perspective, the reactions are at the same time amusing and frustrating. Tdock's expression that "Geeze, maybe I should just say what people want to hear, 'the K712 is a HD800 killer!'" (paraphrased) indicates to me that he thinks (I could be wrong) he is getting backlash because he's not saying what people want to hear, but what I'm seeing is kind of an ugly pre-bias against tdock because in the past his review of another headphone was an outlier, he found the Annie's dark, didn't like them. Sure, I agree that he shoulda said he tried Q701's with Annie pads instead of an actual pair of Annie's, but I have also read others say that you practically get Annie's when you change the pads (and colors and headband) of a Q701. But what amuses/bothers me is that in THIS impression, with the K712 actually being tested, people are trying to discredit his listening impressions and looking for flaws in his methods: even though he's enjoying the headphone AND dropping a few relative comments to his current gear, there is a bias against letting his comments stand.

And of course, humans always care about what things mean to them, so I compare his situation to mine, and wonder if/when people will actively discredit me. You know, I had a pair of AD700 for 3 years, and even after I got my Q701 in June last year I kept the AD700 for MONTHS, because even though I liked the new cans I wasn't sure if they were worth the extra $140 cost over what I paid for the AD700. I was still really happy with the AD700 in a lot if ways and still recommend them as a good headphone and good value, but people would keep ask something like "Why would you still like the AD700 when you have a better headphone?" At first, the sonic characteristics I valued were little improved, so the returns were even more diminished for me from a perspective of what I valued on a purely technical level. After a fairly long time (and after wanting an amp partially for the sake of wanting an amp, and thus getting more of the Q701's potential by throwing an extra $160 in peripherals), I found that I was listening to music more often, and that I found the Q701 + amp more exciting to listen to, so I sold the AD700. Why bring all this up? Because if someone on a budget wants to know if the AD700 is a good headphone, I want to say "Yes! It's a good entry to hifi, best for ..." without someone else coming and saying "don't listen to him, he doesn't like bass/must only listen to classical." I try to say what works well, and let the inquirer decide if it matches with his interests and tastes, but I would be offended if someone tried to suggest I wasn't worth listening to, based off of the antagonists tastes and assumptions about me.

... I can't help posting, but I have been sitting on formal reviews for four headphones, because I know some parts will be disagreed with, and [sounds craven when I say it] I don't want people picking me apart. LoL, it would probably be good for me just to do it anyway, generally people have positive intentions. (Just doesn't always look that way on the internet).

 

[macbob713]

My exact same expirence with the HD800 and K712.

 

[wink]

Things like this never bother me because some people can't get past the concept that other people hear things differently from what they do.
 
That is their problem. If you obsess over their criticism, you also make it yours.

 

[DemonFox]

  Things like this never bother me because some people can't get past the concept that other people hear things differently from what they do.
 
That is their problem. If you obsess over their criticism, you also make it yours.

 
Yup! 
 
We're all entitled to our own opinions so just because a headphones cost $1500 doesn't mean I have to like it more than the ones I paid $200 for just because they're more expensive. My ears are my ears so thats that
 
 
Thanks,
 
 

 

[Salvatore]

He seriously needs to leave the Q701 alone for like a week.

 
+1. Every time I read tdock's comments it's like watching him having sex with his Q701. I think he too hastily rushed saying that annies sounded farty and now he takes something back with the K712. For everything I've read K712 and annies can't be that different.

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

Of course everyone hears differently. Tdock is entitled his opinions. My problem is that his opinions are all over the place half the time, and they change on a daily basis.

If he doesn't like the Annie, that's fine. But his impressions of the 'Annie' and the K712 are as if they're completely different headphones, which by admission of quite a few others who have owned both headphones, are stated to be very similar to the point that you might not be able to really tell the difference if you didn't have them on hand to compare directly. So for him to not like the Annie, and then LOOOOVE the K712... well, come on now, who wouldn't question this? It sounds like utter hyperbole.

This is where I question his impressions.

You're free to choose whatever you want to believe. All I'm saying is, it's questionable here.

I choose to believe someone I have agreed with on many, many different occasions, and who has been quite consistent with their impressions. Tdock has 'moods' where one day a headphone will sound like crap, and then the next day, it's a revelation. I can't trust an impression of someone that swings so wildly.

No need to get your panties in a bunch.

 

[JWahl]

Of course everyone hears differently. Tdock is entitled his opinions. My problem is that his opinions are all over the place half the time, and they change on a daily basis.

If h. doesn't like the Annie, that's fine. But his impressions of the '. nie. and the K712 are as if they're completely different headphones, which by admission of quite a few others who have owned both headphones, are stated to be very similar to the point that you might not be able to really tell the difference if you didn't have them on hand to compare directly. So for him to not like the Annie, and then LOOOOVE the K712... well, come on now, who wouldn't question this? It sounds like utter hyperbole.

This is where I question his impressions.

You're free to choose whatever you want to believe. All I'm saying is, it's questionable here.

I choose to believe someone I have agreed with on many, many different occasions, and who has been quite consistent with their impressions. Tdock has 'moods' where one day a headphone will sound like crap, and then the next day, it's a revelation. I can't trust an impression of someone that swings so wildly.

No need to get your panties in a bunch.

You guys cut him a break.  Perhaps there were a defective batch of annies?  I noticed a positive difference in favor of the k712 as well but I attribute most of the difference from going from the darker sa-31 to the soloist.  And that was your sa-31 so you should know exactly how it sounds like.

 

[devhen]

I agree that we should let tdock speak his mind but I also share MLE's skepticism. tdock has been known to say things that don't make sense (he loved the HD580 but hated the HD600, loves his HD650 but hated the 2 he listened to previously, etc). Either his impressions are very subjective and change frequently or he is hearing absolutely minute things that 99% of listeners don't hear. In either case I consider his impressions to be somewhat unhelpful for those researching the models he reviews. I think its perfectly fair to point that out while still letting him do it. Lets all calm down and move on.

 

[tdockweiler]

   
+1. Every time I read tdock's comments it's like watching him having sex with his Q701. I think he too hastily rushed saying that annies sounded farty and now he takes something back with the K712. For everything I've read K712 and annies can't be that different.

 
Grow up..seriously.
I had the Annie pads for at least 5 months before destroying them because they sound like garbage on basically everything. I think the only acceptable use for them is on a K702/K701. I think 5 months is more than enough time. You notice how nobody has kept their Annie more than 3 months? I probably used the 99.9% Annie more than most of you. That is if it's really the same.
 
Hey guys if you don't like my impressions of the Annie maybe you should instead blame the people who said the Q701 + Annie pads is the same. Maybe they're wrong. I trusted them and even asked permission of it was OK to call it the Annie. They said no problem, it's 99.9% the same etc. Wow, now it comes back to bite me in the a**. I usually point out that I don't have an actual Annie. Two people compared them side by side.
 
Even MLE is ranting about how you can just get some Annie pads for your Q701 and "Instant Annie". Not my quotes. You know what? He tried my Q701 against the Annie and said they sounded the same. 99.9% vs 99%. Can you even hear that kind of difference? They should sound the same right?
 
There is a chance the REAL Annie for ME doesn't even sound anything like the Q701 + Annie pads. I doubt it though.
 
I think the whole reason the Annie sounds so bad for ME is due to the pads. That is it. You put K712 pads on my Q701 and get a similar change. The Annie and K712 pads are NOT THE SAME.
 
I love how you say the K712 and Annie can't really be any different yet you probably haven't tried the K712. Good job!