[lamode]

Originally Posted by analogsurviver /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
this case does not even require thinking out of the box, just plain solid engineering

 
If you understood even basic RC filters, you would understand how ridiculous the claim is that the capacitance on an interconnect will make an audible difference to the FR.
 
Here is an online calculator to make it easy even for trolls with bat-like hearing: http://www.ekswai.com/en_lowpass.htm
 
Example:
 


Yes, that's nearly 32 MHz!!

 

[analogsurviver]

   
If you understood even basic RC filters, you would understand how ridiculous the claim is that the capacitance on an interconnect will make an audible difference to the FR.
 
Here is an online calculator to make it easy even for trolls with bat-like hearing: http://www.ekswai.com/en_lowpass.htm
 
Example:
 


Yes, that's nearly 32 MHz!!

If you read what I wrote, there was NO mention of the interconnect .
 
( As usual, your math is OK - but clearly applied to things that do not matter - 32 MHz is a bit high even for me .  Besides, if you know a real world cable of any reasonable length with the capacitance of only 5 pF (five picofarads) , I am all ears - 5 pF is about the capacitance of a low capacitance  RCA plug. )
 

 
What can be seen above IS CLEARLY LIMITED in the performance BY THE CABLE. ( Or any Stax EVER made ).
 
This is my final " drawing anyone on this thread by the hand to the problem " I will ever post. 

 

[lamode]

  If you read what I wrote, there was NO mention of the interconnect .

 
it doesn't matter, because no interconnect on the planet (>$5) measures badly enough to make an audible impact to the treble.

 

[stv014]

Yes, that's nearly 32 MHz!!

 
Real cables tend to have higher capacitance than 5 pF, though. Actual numbers vary, but a few hundred pF seems to be normal for a headphone cable. In some extreme cases where 10+ meters of cables are used to connect an amplifier to a source with kiloohms of output impedance, it is possible for the corner frequency to be in the range of tens of kHz. But that is far from being a usual situation, and even -3 dB at 50 kHz means less than 0.7 dB attenuation at 20 kHz, and less than 0.2 dB at 10 kHz. And if the source has only 100 ohms of output impedance (which can easily be achieved using a cheap NE5532 output buffer), then the FR effect of any realistic cable capacitance in the audio band is negligible.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
Real cables tend to have higher capacitance than 5 pF, though. Actual numbers vary, but a few hundred pF seems to be normal for a headphone cable. In some extreme cases where 10+ meters of cables are used to connect an amplifier to a source with kiloohms of output impedance, it is possible for the corner frequency to be in the range of tens of kHz. But that is far from being a usual situation. And if the source has only 100 ohms of output impedance (which can easily be achieved using a cheap NE5532 output buffer), then the FR effect of any realistic cable capacitance in the audio band is negligible.

You have, again, similar to others, stated the correct values for the dynamic transducers and their corresponding amplifiers.
 
Does word STAX - or pic of Stax amp and headphone - ring any bells ?

 

[lamode]

   
Real cables tend to have higher capacitance than 5 pF, though. Actual numbers vary, but a few hundred pF seems to be normal for a headphone cable. In some extreme cases where 10+ meters of cables are used to connect an amplifier to a source with kiloohms of output impedance, it is possible for the corner frequency to be in the range of tens of kHz. But that is far from being a usual situation. And if the source has only 100 ohms of output impedance (which can easily be achieved using a cheap NE5532 output buffer), then the FR effect of any realistic cable capacitance in the audio band is negligible.

 
Well, it seems to me we were talking about interconnects. Headphone cables tend to have higher capacitance per meter, and are also longer than typical interconnects, so yes I would expect significantly more capacitance in headphone , but still not enough to matter.
 
Headphone example, with higher C and lower R, showing 26MHz cutoff freq. Feel free to play around with your own numbers.
 

 

[analogsurviver]

   
it doesn't matter, because no interconnect on the planet (>$5) measures badly enough to make an audible impact to the treble.

OK - in battlefield, you don't get an Iron Cross for being stubborn and/or stupid. It is NOT an excuse.
 
You get a Wooden Cross.
 
So, duck - quickly as you can - in first available shelter - and STUDY what are the real values for the items I have posted in pic above.
 
THEN punch the numbers in the calculator - and the result SHOULD confirm what I am saying - provided you did the homework right in the first place.
 
I even allow you to use theoretically perfect source connected by perfect cable (zero R. zero L, zero C) - the result is the same.

 

[lamode]

  OK - in battlefield, you don't get an Iron Cross for being stubborn and/or stupid. It is NOT an excuse.
 
You get a Wooden Cross.
 
So, duck - quickly as you can - in first available shelter - and STUDY what are the real values for the items I have posted in pic above.
 
THEN punch the numbers in the calculator - and the result SHOULD confirm what I am saying - provided you did the homework right in the first place.
 
I even allow you to use theoretically perfect source connected by perfect cable (zero R. zero L, zero C) - the result is the same.

 
I would help if you
a) stuck to one argument without changing the argument every post, and
b) wrote something intelligible about sound science without resorting to obscure WWII references.
 
We were discussing interconnects. You were proven wrong. Posting photos of Stax headphones is NOT a rebuttal.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
I would help if you
a) stuck to one argument without changing the argument every post, and
b) wrote something intelligible about sound science without resorting to obscure WWII references.
 
We were discussing interconnects. You were proven wrong. Posting photos of Stax headphones is NOT a rebuttal.

We were discussing CABLES - I do not remember using the exact word "interconnect" by myself anywhere in the last posts.
 
So - STAX.
 
And - CABLES.
 
And - amplifiers or  ( to a lesser degree, but still affected by cables ) transformers driving Stax ( remember - ELECTROSTATIC ) headphones.

 

[stv014]

Originally Posted by lamode /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Headphone cables tend to have higher capacitance per meter, and are also longer than typical interconnects

 
I did a quick test with a ~1.5 m no name 1/8" TRS to 2xRCA shielded cable, and the capacitance between the ground at one end and one of the channels at the other end seems to be about 400-450 pF.

 

[lamode]

   
I did a quick test with a ~1.5 m no name 1/8" TRS to 2xRCA shielded cable, and the capacitance between the ground at one end and one of the channels at the other end seems to be about 400-450 pF.

 
Ok, a lot higher than the 5pf someone else suggested but with an R value of 1000 ohm that's still a cutoff around 350kHz.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
I did a quick test with a ~1.5 m no name 1/8" TRS to 2xRCA shielded cable, and the capacitance between the ground at one end and one of the channels at the other end seems to be about 400-450 pF.

Normal values. This is for dynamic headphones - and should have no MEASURABLE (did not say audible - no matter how small ) difference with any decent amplifier and dynamic headphone combination.
 
Electrostatics are MUCH tougher nut to crack. And LOTS of fishing in murky waters is going on there; I could post the EXACT numbers, but it would be more interesting if all the others are forced to do the homework and arrive at the same/similar results. These have both measurable and audible differences as a result of CABLES - well within the audible range.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
Ok, a lot higher than the 5pf someone else suggested but with an R value of 1000 ohm that's still a cutoff around 350kHz.

Assumption is the mother of all XXXXXXXX .
 
Try to get the REAL values for the Stax - particularly the model I posted.
 
And be amazed/shocked how many orders of magnitude the above assumption is removed from the truth ...

 

[lamode]

  Electrostatics are MUCH tougher nut to crack. And LOTS of fishing in murky waters is going on there; I could post the EXACT numbers, but it would be more interesting if all the others are forced to do the homework and arrive at the same/similar results. These have both measurable and audible differences as a result of CABLES - well within the audible range.

 
Are you now talking about the cable between the Stax amp and the Stax headphones? You failed to specify.
 
Funny... yesterday you were talking about how important silver interconnects are in a studio. Tomorrow I'm sure you will say that the advantages of silver cables can only be heard with native DSD recordings. And so it goes, again and again...

 

[lamode]

  Assumption is the mother of all XXXXXXXX .
 
Try to get the REAL values for the Stax - particularly the model I posted.
 
And be amazed/shocked how many orders of magnitude the above assumption is removed from the truth ...

 
That post specified specs for an  RCA cable
 
We are discussing INTERCONNECTS
 
Try to keep up