You guys really reign supreme as spin doctors - got to give you that !
If I propose a $ 50 or so CD mat, I am a blantant snake oil salesman depriving poor audiophools of the hard earned and saved money for the tuition of their children - if I propose a really well made ABX comaparator, then I am trying to bankrupt the dealers. You win - no matter what.
And yes, cables CAN be used to finely tune one's system. I do not like the idea of charging for it as much as it is charged in real life - but hey , it DOES work.
You also CAN ABX two cables with this Audio by Van Alstine ABX box - simply use an Y RCA splitter at the output of the source (in case it does not have two sets of output jacks already ) and - voila - your DBT ABX of cables can begin.
But, it is always questionable how far one wants to go with this - if an honest test might reveal something the tester would NOT like to be revealed.
You can always buy the ABX hardware and gift it to your favorite audio dealer.
I have a switch and I use it.
Cables, more snake oil. So what is the electrical property of a cable that affects SQ? Please no goofy answers.
are not exactly punishable - but they do NOT give one an advantage over those who can see beyond the tip of their nose.
And/or are willing to explore past the immediately obvious.
I said I can not comment on those "dots" in public - for the reasons cited - but your mere response indicates that you are guilty of either 1.) and/or 2.)
You guys really reign supreme as spin doctors - got to give you that !
If I propose a $ 50 or so CD mat, I am a blantant snake oil salesman depriving poor audiophools of the hard earned and saved money for the tuition of their children - if I propose a really well made ABX comaparator, then I am trying to bankrupt the dealers. You win - no matter what.
You really think an ABX comparator is a good device for the typical dealer's business model and regular customer? Joe Audiophool regular customer to the dealer won't be upgrading his DAC or amp every few years once he finds out he cannot hear a difference.
I think you are totally clueless about how the hi-fi shop makes money.
You can always buy the ABX hardware and gift it to your favorite audio dealer.
I have a switch and I use it.
Cables, more snake oil. So what is the electrical property of a cable that affects SQ? Please no goofy answers.
RLC characteristics. These can - and are - used to tune the final response, particularly high(er) output impedance tubed gear can be affected - tube preamps DO NOT LIKE practically any capacitance (if no cathode follower or other "buffer" is used - ideally omited for better sonics) - that is why many purist tube gear is made as integrated amps - eschewing that catastrophic 100 pF or more of interconnect between pre and power amp - replacing it by say 10-20 pF internal connection.
You could say similar regarding inductance with some SS stuff.
Again, cables CAN be microphonic. Not exactly electrical property as such, but sound is vibration and vibration in poorly made cable will provide signal if vibration is impigning on the cable. A definitive disadvantage if such cable is used in a sound recording and/or reproduction system.
Then there is the material of the conductor itself. Copper, as the most common material used, is subject to deterioration with time, creating green patina after a (quite) few years :
Although an older cable can look intact without broken/damaged plastic insulation, cutting it up will reveal much the same pic as above - I sure did not like the appearance of my Stax cable when it broke and had to be repaired - yuck ! It also no longer can conduct as when new - no doubt about it. Trouble is that this is a slow process - precluding any ABXing - and we adapt to it on daily basis. One does usually not perform decade(s) old Cu cable
tests vs fresh current production - unless that old cable breaks beyond reasonable repair.
The oldest form of semiconductor was - Copper Oxide. Each such crystal of oxide actually is - a diode. Many many many diodes in series CAN NOT FUNCTION AS A CONDUCTOR - but as, at least partially, as semiconductor. Which CLEARLY is a not desired property.That is why copper is being processed to as oxygen free percentage as possible - and why techniques to create as long copper oxygen free crystals as possible have been developed.
This is where silver cable has and will always have edge over copper - it oxidizes on the surface, yet this oxide prevents it to rot further into the material - and besides giving more reliable and better performance, may even be less expensive in the long run. Replacing ALL the cables say in a studio on regular basis (say 10 or so years ) is one hell of a lot work - and doing it two or three times can well mean it would be mprte cost effective to use silver from the start.
Then, there are properties of the insulation - again, the same story as with capacitors - dialectric properties.
When you combine all the above PLUS geometric considerations (affecting RLC and microphonics ), it can be rather easy to see that the cable can be tailored to the desired end sound. It should not be like that in an ideal world - but we are not living in ideal world, everything has its practical limitations.
Cables included.
I did - quite intentionally - throw a teaser or two regarding cables in the past - including a hint or two. Yet the responses were soooooooooooooooooooooo narow minded in their denial of ANY possibility that cable could cause audible difference that I hardly can believe this is Sound Science forum - where impedance, voltage, current, pF, R, uH , etc - should mean something.
You really think an ABX comparator is a good device for the typical dealer's business model and regular customer? Joe Audiophool regular customer to the dealer won't be upgrading his DAC or amp every few years once he finds out he cannot hear a difference.
I think you are totally clueless about how the hi-fi shop makes money.
That is why hifi shops are weary/scary to employ me in the first place - because I DO NOT LIE.
And will send the customer even to the competition if I honestly can not fullfill the customer's desire with what is available in a store I work at. Not exactly popular with store owners - as you might have guessed by now.
If dealer doesn't have an ABX comparator, they don't have to lie. They can sell equipment based on their--and their customers'--subjective impressions. They'll make way more money that way.
If dealer doesn't have an ABX comparator, they don't have to lie. They can sell equipment based on their--and their customers'--subjective impressions. They'll make way more money that way.
I get *almost* tar feathered because of CD mat at say $50 - which I neither produce nor sell. Being ridiculed in any variation on the theme possible in the process.
Because it *no way under this sun* a CD mat could possibly make a lick of a difference.
( but can prevent one from buying a new CD player - because the existing one + CD mat CAN be match or more than match for the latest offerings - those things actually have happened )
Yet if dealers do not employ an ABX comparator - according to you - they are relieved of any guilt for selling more costlier gear than necessary - for the sake of making more profit.
A dealer still CAN lie - even if employing an ABX comparator. How many dealers will be willing to tell you the gear they are selling has lower life expectancy than that of the competior's ?
Again, cables CAN be microphonic. Not exactly electrical property as such, but sound is vibration and vibration in poorly made cable will provide signal if vibration is impigning on the cable. A definitive disadvantage if such cable is used in a sound recording and/or reproduction system.
Sound is not transmitted via cables - electrical impulses are and they are not microphonic. A transducer (speaker) is required on the other end to turn the electrical impulses into acoustic sound.
RLC characteristics. These can - and are - used to tune the final response, particularly high(er) output impedance tubed gear can be affected - tube preamps DO NOT LIKE practically any capacitance (if no cathode follower or other "buffer" is used - ideally omited for better sonics) - that is why many purist tube gear is made as integrated amps - eschewing that catastrophic 100 pF or more of interconnect between pre and power amp - replacing it by say 10-20 pF internal connection.
You could say similar regarding inductance with some SS stuff.
Again, cables CAN be microphonic. Not exactly electrical property as such, but sound is vibration and vibration in poorly made cable will provide signal if vibration is impigning on the cable. A definitive disadvantage if such cable is used in a sound recording and/or reproduction system.
Then there is the material of the conductor itself. Copper, as the most common material used, is subject to deterioration with time, creating green patina after a (quite) few years :
Although an older cable can look intact without broken/damaged plastic insulation, cutting it up will reveal much the same pic as above - I sure did not like the appearance of my Stax cable when it broke and had to be repaired - yuck ! It also no longer can conduct as when new - no doubt about it. Trouble is that this is a slow process - precluding any ABXing - and we adapt to it on daily basis. One does usually not perform decade(s) old Cu cable
tests vs fresh current production - unless that old cable breaks beyond reasonable repair.
The oldest form of semiconductor was - Copper Oxide. Each such crystal of oxide actually is - a diode. Many many many diodes in series CAN NOT FUNCTION AS A CONDUCTOR - but as, at least partially, as semiconductor. Which CLEARLY is a not desired property.That is why copper is being processed to as oxygen free percentage as possible - and why techniques to create as long copper oxygen free crystals as possible have been developed.
This is where silver cable has and will always have edge over copper - it oxidizes on the surface, yet this oxide prevents it to rot further into the material - and besides giving more reliable and better performance, may even be less expensive in the long run. Replacing ALL the cables say in a studio on regular basis (say 10 or so years ) is one hell of a lot work - and doing it two or three times can well mean it would be mprte cost effective to use silver from the start.
Then, there are properties of the insulation - again, the same story as with capacitors - dialectric properties.
When you combine all the above PLUS geometric considerations (affecting RLC and microphonics ), it can be rather easy to see that the cable can be tailored to the desired end sound. It should not be like that in an ideal world - but we are not living in ideal world, everything has its practical limitations.
Cables included.
I did - quite intentionally - throw a teaser or two regarding cables in the past - including a hint or two. Yet the responses were soooooooooooooooooooooo narow minded in their denial of ANY possibility that cable could cause audible difference that I hardly can believe this is Sound Science forum - where impedance, voltage, current, pF, R, uH , etc - should mean something.
OK,so lets debunk your usual wild ideas.
First some real information, the properties.
Resistance
Impedance
Capacitance
Inductance
1) Old cables, if they fail replace them.
2) Copper Oxide, Cables are not made of copper oxide and it takes a very long time for that to begin forming on an insulated cable. Even if there was a thin skin of copper oxide on a cable it wouldn't be a problem.
3) Capacitance, a couple of hundred pf load should not affect a modern heaphone amp. A 200 pf capacitance has a reactance of 796 Ohms at 1MHz or over 39 kOhms at 20 KHz. Nothing to worry about, except for wild immaginations. Even a cheap opamp from the 1970's can handle that, if used properly.
4) Inductance, yep that's a problem, at very high radio frequencies.
5) RLC, once again, something to consider at radio frequencies, not audio. Do some math, it's not that complicated.
6) Microphones, get a cable that doesn't have stiff wires and insulation. This is a mechanical thing, not electronic. The sound does not come through electronically, it's mechanically conducted vibrations.If you have a dirty connector, clean it.
7) Dielectric properties are effectively manifested in pf, any stock headphone or interconnect cable I own has very low capacitance, not in the realm of audio.
To use your vernacular:
Your claims as usual are soooooooooooooo rediculous.
Get your act together and put your overactive imagination under control.
I get *almost* tar feathered because of CD mat at say $50 - which I neither produce nor sell. Being ridiculed in any variation on the theme possible in the process.
Because it *no way under this sun* a CD mat could possibly make a lick of a difference.
You are in a sound science forum. You are not in a hifi shop. If you don't understand why you deserve to be tarred and feathered for your subjective claims after all this conversation, you need to get out. (lol)
Yet if dealers do not employ an ABX comparator - according to you - they are relieved of any guilt for selling more costlier gear than necessary - for the sake of making more profit.
Who said anything about relieving guilt? I said they don't have to lie. They can continue to sell based on subjective impressions, just as they have been doing: "This sounds better to me." And their business model depends on it, or they won't be making sales.
@analogsurviver , et.al. More on cables.
The wavelength of 20 kHz is 15000 meters. So let's not think of transmission lines, SWR, termination or waveguides. I can't think of anyone with a 1/4 Wave headphone cable.
As the frequency lowers the wavlength increases.
The Ham radio 10 Meter (wavelength) band beings at 28.000 and goes to 29.700 MHz. So don't worry about headphone cables.
The wavelength of 20 kHz is 15000 meters. So let's not think of transmission lines, SWR, termination or waveguides. I can't think of anyone with a 1/4 Wave headphone cable.
However, what travels in the cable is electrical and travels near the speed of light. Once it leaves the headphone/loudspeakers that's when the story changes. Your scenario is incorrect as it applies to cables.
However, what travels in the cable is electrical and travels near the speed of light. Once it leaves the headphone/loudspeakers that's when the story changes. Your scenario is incorrect as it applies to cables.
-More like at 60-70% of the speed of light in most practical cables, but I am splitting hairs here, a favourite pastime of mine. You are right; he's wrong. (And I love reading these cable threads - being an MSc who majored in RF engineering and an avid ham radio operator, I've done my fair share of both crunching the numbers on, building and testing transmission lines (fancy word for 'cable').
Short version: At baseband audio, there's no magic; just about anything goes.
-More like at 60-70% of the speed of light in most practical cables, but I am splitting hairs here, a favourite pastime of mine. You are right; he's wrong. (And I love reading these cable threads - being an MSc who majored in RF engineering and an avid ham radio operator, I've done my fair share of both crunching the numbers on, building and testing transmission lines (fancy word for 'cable').
Short version: At baseband audio, there's no magic; just about anything goes.
Even lamp (brown zip) cord will work, then again you did say that, "just about anything goes." I'm an EE and find a lot of the audio threads very amusing. I specialized in audio, instrumentation, process control and microprocessor/digital.
I dabbled in RF, me and a buddy did some bad things with a spark gap when we were 12, in a densly populated urban area, NYC. Lets just say that Radio and TV reception was compromised when we were messing around.
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